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mark chalfant

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Monroe (Donald Ross) rochester, ny
« on: September 26, 2007, 05:08:08 PM »
Brian Silva, according to this club's website, considers this to be one of Ross's finest efforts.   The aerial reveals lots of angles and strong bunkering. Has anyone been lucky  enough to play here ?  Is Monroe's terrain interesting, and is there  a nice variety of holes at this Pittsford NY  course.

thanks
« Last Edit: May 19, 2008, 10:49:33 PM by mark chalfant »

Chris Cupit

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Re:Monroe (D Ross) c. rochester, ny
« Reply #1 on: September 26, 2007, 05:51:55 PM »
Yes.  I played in their tournament years ago--it's an excellent course.  I've posted a few comments on the site before and Monroe is one of my favorite "sleeper" courses.

In Rochester (or Pittsford I guess) I'd rather play Monroe than Oak Hill.  Certainly Oak hill is much more difficult but for a fun and interesting round of golf, give me Monroe.

PS I even think the greens on the "other course" at oak hill are far more interesting than on the Ryder Cup, US open, PGA course.  

JNC Lyon

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Re:Monroe (D Ross) c. rochester, ny
« Reply #2 on: September 26, 2007, 07:17:46 PM »
For starters, Monroe is not a better course than Oak Hill.  It's probably more fun than the East course, but the West is far better, with more original greens (Monroe has three non-Ross greens).  That being said, Monroe is a fine track, with very good endings to both nines.  The bunkering is very interesting, but in need of a restoration.  There are too many trees, but the fairways are wide between the trees to keep the original playing angles.  Great set of par threes with lots of variety to them.  The course has plenty of wild greens aside from the three snoozers mentioned above.  I'd put it high on my list to play in Rochester, but certainly not the best in the area.  My top ten is:

1) CC of Rochester
2) Oak Hill West
3) Oak Hill East
4) Mill Creek
5) Monroe
6) Cobblestone Creek
7) Brook Lea
8) Irondequoit
9) Stafford
10) Ravenwood
« Last Edit: September 28, 2007, 11:03:25 PM by JNC_Lyon »
"That's why Oscar can't see that!" - Philip E. "Timmy" Thomas

Chris Cupit

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Re:Monroe (D Ross) c. rochester, ny
« Reply #3 on: September 26, 2007, 08:35:42 PM »
JNC_Lyon

I never said Monroe was "better" (whatever that means) than Oak Hill.  I did say if I had a choice I'd pick Monroe because I thought it was more "fun and interesting".  Neat holes at Monroe for me were:  #4, #5, #6, #9, #10, #11 AND #18.  It's been close to 20 years since I played in the Monroe so I might be shaky on the hole numbers.  

I have not been to Oak Hill since playing in the '98 Am but I can say that I was underwhelmed by the East course at Oak Hill.  I did think the West course's greens were more interesting.  

Also, I think that Oak Hill West vs. Monroe GC would be a "match" I'd enjoy watching ;D

Oak Hill East just didn't thrill me.  It is an outstanding course although I felt #13 with the famous trees of honor or whatever may be the worst hole on the course!  I also thought 16-18 were a bit of a letdown.  But overall it is a solid, tough, demanding bear of a course.  It demanded great driving and solid iron play (maybe I didn't like that it didn't suit my game :D).

I remember that on the West there was a long dog leg right par 4 with an absolutely wicked green that was maybe my favorite of the entire 36. Your drive had to land on a narrow shelf and then the shot to the green was pretty intimidating as well.

I walked CCR and am shocked you have it #1 but I never actually played it so.....


Mike_Cirba

Re:Monroe (D Ross) c. rochester, ny
« Reply #4 on: September 26, 2007, 08:39:44 PM »
JNC,

Is Mill Creek really that good?

I may be up in a few weeks and was thinking about possibly trying to play Monroe, but you have Mill Creek up in some pretty heady company.

JNC Lyon

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Re:Monroe (D Ross) c. rochester, ny
« Reply #5 on: September 28, 2007, 01:25:18 AM »
Chris:  CCR has been restored since 1998 and is vastly improved.  Before it wasn't in my top ten for Rochester, but it is fantastic after Gil Hanse's work and only getting better (Hanse took out the old non-Ross 18th green and put in a new green that combines with the practice putting green).  

The West Course is so fun, and it's not even close to the original as far as bunkering is concerned, but the terrain is perfect for golf, and the greens are first-rate Ross.  Which par four are you referring to, 13?? The tee shot is very difficult from all the way back, through a notch between hills (a shelf of sorts), then dips down into valley before rising back up to a first class greensite.  The green is pretty tough, about medium for the course.  OB down the right, is the one you're thinking of??? Cool hole, like it better every time I play it.

The match between Monroe and OHW is close, goes like this:

1   2   3   4   5   6   7   8   9   10   11   12   13   14   15   16   17   18
o1 o2 o3 o4 o3  o2  o1  o1 as m1 as  o1  o2  o3  o4  o3  o2 o1

The West takes the slight edge, probably more dramatic difference if you compare hole by par.

Also, 13 on the East is a fantastic par five.  The hill of fame is a little cheesy and overemphasized at the club, but the hole itself is unbelievable, one of the best greensites ever, the hole is prefectly routing across the most dramatic terrain on either course.  The tee shot is a bit of layup, and some don't like that, but from the tips you have decision whether to drive close to the creek for a shorter second or lay back safely and face two more tough shots.  The second shot presents the most decisions, as going close to the fairway bunkers is a risk reward proposition, and the farther away from the bunkers you go, the harder the third shot.  The green is very cool despite some changes by RTJ.  A great long par five that stands up well to technology in comparison with other holes of length, and it still present   strategy for the everyday golfer.

Mike:
I like Mill Creek more than most people, but it is a lot of fun.  There are three genuinely bad holes that I don't mind as much as most people.  The course is wide open, with several multiple-fairway holes with legitmate strategy and options. The greens are big, wild, and loads of fun, while still contributing to the strategy back to the tee.  I personally like it better than Monroe, and it comes very close to the courses at Oak Hill (minus the three bad holes, 10, 11, and 18, which most people hate).

If you are up there, definitely try to play it.  It's an okay walking course with a few steep climbs, but definitely don't cart it.  It'll be relatively inexpensive and in solid condition.  They like to keep it firm and fast.  Talk to me or John Foley for any other recommendations in Rochester, I've played almost every course except for Stafford and Irondequoit.

Key Holes: 2, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 13, 14, 16, 17
« Last Edit: September 28, 2007, 01:26:10 AM by JNC_Lyon »
"That's why Oscar can't see that!" - Philip E. "Timmy" Thomas

Dan Herrmann

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Re:Monroe (D Ross) c. rochester, ny
« Reply #6 on: September 28, 2007, 07:49:23 AM »
I think Gil Hanse has been working with Monroe to get the Ross back into some of the holes.  

The only weak hole (to me) at Monroe is #1.

I found it to be a wonderful golf course with really great green complexes.  I thought 18 was awesome with a diagonal swale through the green.

Not the longest course in the world, but who cares - I found it to be a joy to play.

JNC Lyon

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Re:Monroe (D Ross) c. rochester, ny
« Reply #7 on: September 28, 2007, 01:14:30 PM »
18 is a fantastic hole, the swale in the green is unqiue and very cool--good for drainage off the green as well.

1 is a very poor hole, as are 11 and 12, and all the par fives except 9 are pushovers (14 has a great greensite, but is very easy overall).  

The course is sand-based so it is always firm and fast compared to Oak Hill, which is heavily over-watered (sadly), making it more fun the East course, but the west at Oak Hill just has a better variety of holes and its collection of Ross greens is better and more diverse.
"That's why Oscar can't see that!" - Philip E. "Timmy" Thomas

Scott Witter

Re:Monroe (D Ross) c. rochester, ny
« Reply #8 on: September 28, 2007, 02:21:54 PM »
Monroe is VERY solid with some substantial strategy and playing interest for all and I too would consider it a fine Ross layout and certainly one of the most fun courses to play in the Rochester area.

JNC that was 10 you listed, not 5 ;)

FYI- Gil Hanse is the consulting architect at Monroe and as recently as yesterday I believe a contractor has been selected to begin work very soon on a major bunker project, a few tees and perhaps some tree work, the bulk is bunkers however, with a mix of restoration, new and rebuilds throughout the course.  The work is based on a master plan done by Gil's office.  When finished, I believe it will surpase the overall quality of CC of R and could contend for best remodel...what ever that means ???  As you may know, Gil's work at CC of R won this award/recognition last year.

JNC Lyon

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Re:Monroe (D Ross) c. rochester, ny
« Reply #9 on: September 28, 2007, 06:35:30 PM »
Scott, I agree that Monroe will surpass CC of Rochester after renovation, no matter how much I enjoy CCR.  Having played both before restoration, Monroe has a lot more to work with in terms of Ross greens and strategy and terrain.  The trick will be getting approval from some of the members, but Hanse's work there is guaranteed to be awesome.  Just take out some trees, restore the bunkering to its true glory, and it'll be the best in the area.
"That's why Oscar can't see that!" - Philip E. "Timmy" Thomas

JESII

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Re:Monroe (D Ross) c. rochester, ny
« Reply #10 on: September 28, 2007, 07:22:56 PM »
I'll add another vote in favor of Monroe being very high quality. I'm not comparing it to any of the others up there, but it is very good anf fun...

Patrick Hitt

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Re:Monroe (D Ross) c. rochester, ny
« Reply #11 on: October 01, 2007, 02:42:09 PM »
It seems hard for me to believe that  less than 10 years after the in-house crew completed a multi year restoration of bunkers that the club would decide to redo them again. Because of the sandy soil profile, the crew was able to use probes to identify and recreate the original shapes. It was a very cool process to watch. I always thought Monroe's charm was that attempted to keep what was left of it's original (and unique) Ross character intact. The pit bunkers and great green on 7, the approach bunkers on 2, and the fairway complex on the adjacent 4th are examples. Hopefully the work is limited to changing the 1st hole  and the part of the back side that has been tinkered with. Does anyone know the details ?

John Foley

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Re:Monroe (D Ross) c. rochester, ny
« Reply #12 on: October 01, 2007, 04:00:07 PM »
As Scott mentioned I heard that there was a master plan in the works, but had not known if it had been approved by the club.

The old keeper of the green Patrick Gerstner - used to be post here.

Does anyone know where he went after Monroe? He was a very good guy.
Integrity in the moment of choice

Dan Herrmann

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Re:Monroe (D Ross) c. rochester, ny
« Reply #13 on: October 01, 2007, 07:15:49 PM »
I was just re-reading Dr. Klein's book, and he has bestowed the "Rodney Dangerfield, I don't get any respect" upon Monroe.   Hopefully, Monroe, post Gil, will get the respect it deserves, especially from those living up there.

My Rochester sister-in-law (a non-golfer) was surprised I thought so highly of Monroe.  She knew the club only from its non-golf "stuff".


Mike_Cirba

Re:Monroe (D Ross) c. rochester, ny
« Reply #14 on: October 01, 2007, 10:11:12 PM »
JNC/John/Scott, et.al...

Now my stepdaughter is saying she wants to come back home for her birthday weekend on the 19th, instead of us coming up there.

So, it may wait til November, which is always iffy weather.

In any case, John F....I'll let you know.

Dan Herrmann

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Re:Monroe (D Ross) c. rochester, ny
« Reply #15 on: October 02, 2007, 07:42:12 AM »
Come on, Mike - November is prime early lake effect season up there   :D

Patrick Hitt

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Re:Monroe (D Ross) c. rochester, ny
« Reply #16 on: October 02, 2007, 01:56:29 PM »
Scott,
Can you describe some of the changes the master plan will bring ?

JNC Lyon

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Re:Monroe (D Ross) c. rochester, ny
« Reply #17 on: October 02, 2007, 05:45:09 PM »
November golf can be good if you're lucky, but I don't know if the quality public courses are open then, it all depends.
"That's why Oscar can't see that!" - Philip E. "Timmy" Thomas

Scott Witter

Re:Monroe (D Ross) c. rochester, ny
« Reply #18 on: October 02, 2007, 07:38:12 PM »
Patrick:

As I noted, and I am not speaking for Gil BTW, the bulk of the current improvements involves bunker work with many restorations, some new additions and a few sensitive retooling of others, some actually will be removed and shifted slightly.

As far as the master plan goes, I am aware of many green expansions, actually restorations of the putting surface to recapture the original limits and return lost strategy/great pin positions, tee expansions, some tee additions for length I think, but don't quote me there, and some forward tee changes to improve flexibility, various degrees of tree work with plenty of key removals around green sites and to return lost playing corridors and then fairway expansions to complete the strategy for tee shots and to increase choices I believe.

From what I have seen, it is yet another well developed and thoughtful plan by Gil and as I said before, when complete, it will lead the pack in the Rochester market for the best of Ross.  From a master plan standpoint, there are not a lot of big elements that need work.  Patrick I presume you know the course well and would agree regarding the quality and condition of Ross features.  The course is very strong holding most of the great character that Ross & Co created.  There are those who think highly of Oak Hill, but IMO it has been changed so much by so many hands that consideration to Ross, doesn't enter the discussion when talking about Monroe and CC oF R.

One of the neatest things about the work is the fact that it requires almost no drainage.  The soils are fairly unique to upstate NY with very sandy/loaming subsoils that possess great internal drainage properties, therefore no need for extensive drain lines.

"It seems hard for me to believe that  less than 10 years after the in-house crew completed a multi year restoration of bunkers that the club would decide to redo them again. Because of the sandy soil profile, the crew was able to use probes to identify and recreate the original shapes. It was a very cool process to watch. I always thought Monroe's charm was that attempted to keep what was left of it's original (and unique) Ross character intact. The pit bunkers and great green on 7, the approach bunkers on 2, and the fairway complex on the adjacent 4th are examples. Hopefully the work is limited to changing the 1st hole"

I was aware that considerable work was done on the bunkers some years ago, but I have no input regarding the direction they had or the quality of the execution.  I believe Monroe will NOT lose any of its charm and in fact I am sure it will be greatly enhanced as a result of the MP and the improvements identified.  

JNC Lyon

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Re:Monroe (D Ross) c. rochester, ny
« Reply #19 on: October 02, 2007, 10:54:54 PM »
Monroe's bunkers are still shaggy and in a bit of disrepair in comparison to those at CC of R.  The placement of bunkers is good, but they just need to be touched up.  The old greens could also be restored on 1, 11, and 12.  I love the shared bunkering between 4 and 7, and the bunkering on 4 is particularly good.  The problem now is that half the fairway bunkers are half hidden in the trees and in major disrepair.  These bunkers need to be highlighted with tree removal, something done very effectively at CC of R.

This is better than at Oak Hill, where no Ross fairway bunkers remain on either course.  I just think the West Course has a better variety of holes and a better set of greens (the one non-original Ross green is fantastic anyways).  Monroe is slightly more fun to play because of maintenance practices, but Oak Hill's greens allow for more excitement (1, 2, 3, 4, 6, 7, 9, 11, 14, 15 are always good for some fireworks).  But don't even get me started on what could be done tee to green on EVERY hole to widen fairways, take out trees, and restored fairway bunkering.  The responses are very similar: "You can't take out trees, it makes it too easy for people"; "You just want this course to be a links course don't you" (in Rochester, NY?? right); "This hole needs trees to protect the right side of the fairway"; etc., etc.

There is certainly a big difference in the integrity of the East Course vs. the West Course in original design, and I wish people would make the distinction rather than saying "X course is better than Oak Hill."

In conclusion, I suppose Monroe, after restoration, will move into the top spot in Rochester in my book, but only if they do what I said above.
"That's why Oscar can't see that!" - Philip E. "Timmy" Thomas

Dan Herrmann

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Re:Monroe (D Ross) c. rochester, ny
« Reply #20 on: October 03, 2007, 07:16:19 AM »
JNC - well said.

My friend told me that Gil had pitched a comprehensive tree management program.  Personally, I think this would be a huge success.  There is some very nice ground movement out there hidden under the trees.  

We all know what tree removal can do for grass health, but can you imagine Monroe with 75% of its trees removed?  It could end up being the most 'genuine' Ross course anywhere.  (By genuine, I mean the 2010 version most closely represents what the course looked like 5 years after it was built).

There is a great opprortunity out there to do something really special.  Exciting stuff :)


Mike_Cirba

Re: Monroe (D Ross) c. rochester, ny
« Reply #21 on: May 19, 2008, 10:35:16 PM »
On a hectic, cold, rainy, "graduation" weekend, I was able to catch a break in the "packing" to sneak over to Monroe yesterday and played in the rain, sans unbrella, on foot, in 2.5 hours.

It is an awesome golf course, and the par fours and par threes are in Plainfield's league.   In fact, all told, the par fours may be superior.   Plainfield's par fives put it a notch above, but even there you have some magnificent holes like the 9th and 12th.


« Last Edit: May 19, 2008, 10:39:40 PM by MichaelPaulCirba »

mark chalfant

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Re: Monroe (Donald Ross) rochester, ny
« Reply #22 on: May 19, 2008, 10:59:19 PM »
Mike,

thanks so much for the positive report. From a topo, i remember some nice
ravines / natural features  on the Monroe plan.  Were some of those qualities evident, and fun to play ?

thanks

Mike_Cirba

Re: Monroe (Donald Ross) rochester, ny
« Reply #23 on: May 19, 2008, 11:10:21 PM »
Mark,

Great to hear from you!

The glacial land of upstate NY is really superb for golf, with so many different micro-features and wonderfully varied topography creating just the right amount slope, pitch, roll, and nuance to add infinitely to the pleasure and challenge of the game.   I know some of the geological names...eskers, eddys, etc. ;), but for my layman's purposes let's just say that's wildly pitched, rolling land that is exciting without being burdensome.

Monroe is seemingly typical of what I've experienced generally in that area, but is better utilized than most.   It's just an astounding routing, and one that seems to employ every square inch of the property to a larger, grander purpose. 

The stretch from 12 through 17 is virtually incomparable in my experience in the incredible use of every bit of possible landform for exquisite golf values.




John Blain

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Re: Monroe (Donald Ross) rochester, ny
« Reply #24 on: May 20, 2008, 08:29:36 AM »
FWIW - The restoration by Gil Hanse was started late last fall and is nearly complete.
It includes: - significant tree removal (although Gil wanted more but the membership resisted)
                  - a total bunker renovation included the addition of four or five additional bunkers.
                  - significant lengthening of the course including the par five ninth that will now play at 600 yards.
                 
                   - rebuilding the first green and leveling and lengthening the first tee.

 Overall they did a nice job and there is no question it is an improvement but I would stop short of saying it was all it could have been. The membership was very resistant to the tree removal, especially the "old guard". Additionally money was a bit of a factor. Monroe is no different than any other club in upstate New York as they have been effected by the downturn in the interest of people joining private clubs and the economy.

After the renovation is complete here is my ranking of Rochester's Ross courses:

1) CCR (Gil Hanse did an incredible job and there were no costs spared)
2) Oak Hill CC (west)
3) Monroe GC