[Pete Lavallee]

Adam and RJ's threads about firm fast playing conditions has stimulated some interesting disscussion. As someone who grew up on a muni in Mass., with no fairway irrigation, I can truely appreciate how much more fun golf is when the ball bounces and runs out. Our course would invariably green up just before the Labor Day Fourball; the grass could take 6-8 weeks of dry conditions and bounce right back because it was trained to do so. One must also recognize that when the water is finally turned on, either by rain or irrigation, it is very soft water; which I'm sure the grass really appreciates.

My question is can we ever acheive that here in So. Cal.? Surely we can't leave the grass unwatered from May to Nov. while we wait for rain. I don't think any grass, no matter what Linc Rhoden does to it, could survive that! So some irrigation would need to take place. However, here in So. Cal. our water is supplied by the Colarado River and has a very high salt content. Can we irrigate once or twice a week with this kind of water and get away with it? From what I've been led to believe, infrequent waterings would allow the salts to leave suspension in the soil and severely damage the turf. Is there any way we could achieve the results that makes British golf so much fun?

[Tim Leahy]

I think the Kikuyu grass prevents that on many SoCal courses. But I seem to remember Rustic playing firm & fast tee to green a few times and also the PGA courses at Oak Valley played that way a couple of years ago when I played there. I also seem to remember Meadows Del Mar playing firm, but it was pretty young, I wouldn't doubt that it has been overtaken by Kikuyu by now.

[Adam Clayman]

Pete, Good question.

My initial completely uneducated thoughts are that if a place like Talking Stick North can provide that wonderful mat of low mow Bermuda, in Scottsdale, acheiving similar conditions in SoCal should not be all that impossible. With newer cultivars and even that nasty weed Paspaulum gaining acceptance, even the salts shouldn't be a major headache.

[Jon Wiggett]

Pete,

what did they do before auto irrigation?

[Mike_Young]

Pete,
With all due respect and understanding , I am not sure it can deliver anywhere.
Here in GA we have had a drought and are in the midst of not being able to water.  Play is down and all comments on websites are abot the horrible conditions....we intentionally were promoting such conditions and it backfired.  IMHO 9 out of 10 want green and will not take the time to understand anything else.  Much of our play is from players that have moved to a golf destination resort/development...play with their wife once a week, top flite ball and think playing a signature course or living on one is the ultimate.....when these guys come over they want green and if they don't get it....they can't see any architecture...they just know the place is no good.
Mike

[Mark Pearce]

Pete,
With all due respect and understanding , I am not sure it can deliver anywhere.

Of course it can.  Royal Liverpool members loved the way Hoylake played last year.  After the wettest summer on record we finally got a couple of weeks dry weather in the UK at the beginning of September, courses started to change colour and members rejoiced that their courses were beginning to play properly.  

It's about member expectations.  Courses didn't always used to be monochrome green, that's come from improved (sic?) irrigation and the sight of dark green courses being played by the pros.  Members (and golfers generally) can be educated back but it won't be easy.  It's not helped by idiots suggesting that Hoylake was dead, either.

[Rich Goodale]

Mike

I would ask you, is there any agronomic reason for overseeding bermuda in the winter, or is it just a color thing?  When I lived in NE Florida, the annual rye overseeding exercise was to me a very annoying and seemingly pointless ritual.  All you ended up with were a few weeks of inferior play, a few months with dark green greens spotted within light green fairways and yellow roughs, and no improvement in playability.  But I was young and fooliosh then...

Rich

[Brent Hutto]

My club does not overseed in the winter. We play off dormant Bermuda in the fairways and greens. Only the Par 3 greens are overseeded since they would overwise be nothing but divots by Spring (we have a lot of winter rounds played).

My initial impression on joining was that not overseeding was a decision made on the basis of playing conditions, specifically avoiding near-unplayable transition periods twice annually during some of the most gorgous golf weather of the year. It turns out that it's more about budget and in the past the club has overseeded at least the greens.

I just hope we don't ever "find" the money to start butchering the course every Spring and Fall. Here in South Carolina those transitions can become horribly protracted if they weather doesn't follow the expected temperature profiles. The downside is that certain landing areas in the fairways are a real mess by late January or early February if we have a mild winter and lots of play. The greens (with paint and perhaps a rolling or two) seem to hold up well until the last couple weeks before the Bermuda re-emerges in April. It's a real pleasure to be playing on healthy, strong greens in late April when the weather turns perfect and most courses are putting on a mixed stubble of poa triv and stressed Bermuda.

[Pete Lavallee]

Pete,

what did they do before auto irrigation?

Jon,

Every golf course in San Diego before 1922 had dirt fairways and oiled sand greens. My home course, Balboa Park, didn't convert to grassed fairways and greens until 1938. San Diego CC was the first course to use wall to wall grass when it opened in 1922.

[Sean Leary]

Pete,

A friend played SDCC a few weeks ago and said it was quite brown and played really fast.  Have you been out there recently?

[Pete Lavallee]

Pete,
With all due respect and understanding , I am not sure it can deliver anywhere.
Here in GA we have had a drought and are in the midst of not being able to water.  Play is down and all comments on websites are abot the horrible conditions....we intentionally were promoting such conditions and it backfired.  

Mike,

On the philisophical side I would have to agree. Torrey Pines is now trying to achieve a monostand of Kikuyu and has pretty much turned off the water to fairways and rough in order to kill off the poa and rye. It has been in dormancy for several months now. They have also relagated all carts to the paths which has really helped the fairway conditions; they are playing great with tight lies and a little run out on the drive, it just looks different. Play is certainly down because of it. They use reclaimed water, I don't know if the quality is better or worse than tap water.

[SB]

Rich,

As Brent points out, it is not required.  From an agronomic perspective, it is probably preferable to not overseed, but I'll let the supers confirm that.  Overseeding is a marketing decision based on trying to attract play from October - March.  As Brent points out, the downside is the transition period in fall and spring.

I think I have seen a trend toward not overseeding private clubs here in the Atlanta area, but maybe Chris Cupit can add what he sees.  The clubs that I have seen that do not overseed have PURE conditions in spring and summer because they can completely clean out all of the weeds during the winter.

[Pete Lavallee]

Pete,
With all due respect and understanding , I am not sure it can deliver anywhere.

Of course it can.  Royal Liverpool members loved the way Hoylake played last year.  It's about member expectations.  

Mark,

Expectations are key. If you are trying to run the ball onto the green or keep the ball down into the wind, firm tight lies are an asset. However, if you need to fly one high to avoid fronting hazards and don't possess the skill of Tiger, wouldn't you want a nice fluffy lie?

[SB]

To finish my thought, because So Cal has so much play during winter months because of the warm temps, they would HAVE to overseed or they would lose a lot of business.  Similarly, you'll never see brown fairways in Arizona, Florida, or Nevada. As Mike points out, most customers in the US will not accept brown.

[Aidan Bradley]

Brown can be beautiful........... Barona, Oct/Nov 2006

[JESII]

Damn, that guy is good...

[Mark Pearce]

Pete,
With all due respect and understanding , I am not sure it can deliver anywhere.

Of course it can.  Royal Liverpool members loved the way Hoylake played last year.  It's about member expectations.  

Mark,

Expectations are key. If you are trying to run the ball onto the green or keep the ball down into the wind, firm tight lies are an asset. However, if you need to fly one high to avoid fronting hazards and don't possess the skill of Tiger, wouldn't you want a nice fluffy lie?

No.  I'll take a good tight links lie any day, thank you.

It is all down to expectations, though, and changing those is a long, hard process.  Until the pros are seen playing in brown conditions and saying how good they are, there's no prospect of changing the mindset of your average golfer in the US.  Sadly expectations of lush greenery are growing in the UK, too, I fear.

[Pete Lavallee]

Barona creek is definetly one of the few courses in So. Cal. that provide firm and fast conditions; but only for certain times of the year. They have many advantages that allow this: an unlimited maintanence budget, irrigation water that is primarily drawn from wells, a unique microclimate in Wild Cat Canyon and the vision of the Tribe to present a golf course that plays well rather than looks good.

That particular picture was taken when the course was preparing to overseed; the bermuda has been scalped and dried, the rye has not yet been sowed. When it does sprout the firm conditions through the green are gone until the bermuda dominates again in the spring.

It is interesting to note that both BC and TPS built their A4 bent greens in 2000. Torrey is now almost completely gone to poa anna, while BC is still pure A4 bent. Of course they have people on the hands and knees digging out the poa that tries to invade the greens and fringes with pen knives. Their warm dry microclimate is much more receptive to growing bent and rejecting poa anna.

[Rich Goodale]

Thanks, Brent and SBusch.  Also Aidan--great to see Barona looking so interesting.

[Pete Lavallee]

Pete,

A friend played SDCC a few weeks ago and said it was quite brown and played really fast.  Have you been out there recently?

Sean,

I haven't been out to SDCC in quite a while; I suspect they are preparing to overseed, but that's just a guess on my part.

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