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John Kavanaugh

What opinions do you have about golf course architecture that would cause an intellectual to attack you with these words?  Are there givens in the GCA world and if so, what are they?

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:You are either brazenly provocative or astonishingly uneducated..
« Reply #1 on: September 26, 2007, 08:20:40 AM »
Ummm,

Pretty much every thing I say here seems to cause a backlash, but thanks for the op to have it happen again, John! ::)

Although I have said these before:

The old guys were basically not thinking about much other than drainage when contouring putting greens.  We give they WAY too much credit.....

Participants here take this gca thang WAY too seriously in general. I'm not saying that any gca, moi included, shouldn't give his/her all when actually designing a course.  Just that we should break our backs analyzing it here. Just go play, dammit!
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Phil McDade

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:You are either brazenly provocative or astonishingly uneducated..
« Reply #2 on: September 26, 2007, 08:44:21 AM »
Given today's technology (balls, drivers), Augusta National is a better and more challenging course than it was (pick a year....in 1986), and provides greater options on how to attack it.....


Matt MacIver

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:You are either brazenly provocative or astonishingly uneducated..
« Reply #3 on: September 26, 2007, 09:16:54 AM »
What opinions do you have about golf course architecture that would cause an intellectual to attack you with these words?  Are there givens in the GCA world and if so, what are they?


"I really like this course -- it's all right there in front of you."

Phil_the_Author

Re:You are either brazenly provocative or astonishingly uneducated..
« Reply #4 on: September 26, 2007, 09:39:09 AM »
Jeff,

You are correct in that some of what you state can bring about challenges. For example, I must take exception to your statement that, "The old guys were basically not thinking about much other than drainage when contouring putting greens.  We give they WAY too much credit....."

Speaking only about Tilly, I maintain that you are way wrong in your belief and that, at least in his case, maybe we don't give him enough credit for a design philosophy. Consider what Tilly stated about greens and their designs and let me know where he even intimates anything at all about drainage:

“So our first step toward supplying our putting greens with character is the consideration of the type of shot which is to find that green and construct with that thought ever uppermost...”

"In introducing undulations the builder of courses must consider the shot which is to fit the green...”

“Construct your greens boldly and naturally, remembering at all times from which side of the fairway the approach is to come and the character of the club with which the approach is to be made...”

“The character of the putting greens and their approaches mark the quality of a course to a far greater extent than anything else. No matter how excellent may be the distances; how cunningly placed the hazards, or how carefully considered has been the distribution of shots, if the greens themselves do not stand forth impressively the course itself can never be notable...”


John Kavanaugh

Re:You are either brazenly provocative or astonishingly uneducated..
« Reply #5 on: September 26, 2007, 09:53:36 AM »
Given today's technology (balls, drivers), Augusta National is a better and more challenging course than it was (pick a year....in 1986), and provides greater options on how to attack it.....



What is not debatable is the fact that ANGC is the number one greatest course in the world.

Chris_Clouser

Re:You are either brazenly provocative or astonishingly uneducated..
« Reply #6 on: September 26, 2007, 09:53:38 AM »
In my opinion Bernard Darwin was a great essayist, but only so-so as an analyst of golf course architecture.

I suppose if I said something like that I would get told I am astonishingly uneducated.

I've also been told by Pat Mucci on more than one occasion I belong to the Flat Earth Society because I disagree with him on equipment issues.  Does that count?


Jerry Kluger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:You are either brazenly provocative or astonishingly uneducated..
« Reply #7 on: September 26, 2007, 09:54:43 AM »
JK: What does being an intelectual have to do with golf course architecture?  Now, if some mega developer/billionaire said that to me well that would be a different story.  My response would still be - get rid of the waterfall.

Phil Benedict

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:You are either brazenly provocative or astonishingly uneducated..
« Reply #8 on: September 26, 2007, 09:54:43 AM »
National Golf Links of America is too quirky and has too many blind shots.

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:You are either brazenly provocative or astonishingly uneducated..
« Reply #9 on: September 26, 2007, 09:56:00 AM »
Phillip,

I admit I was thinking more of Ross, but I also recall a quote from somewhere saying "You can always tell a Tillie green - it drains!"

I also find it interesting that his comments on green contouring relate more to the approach shot.  It reads to me like he wanted the green basically both angled and sloped towards the premium side of the fw to assist stopping shots.  As to overall slope, Thomas wrote that short shots should have steeper greens to help with backspin and long shots should have flatter ones to allow run out.  I am not sure that with standardized clubs now that it might not be the other way around, but I also think Tillie was making a similar statement.

I don't doubt that Tilly had thoughts about green design.  Given train travel, I wonder how closely those building the courses with his one or two site visits might actually get to that philosophy.......

Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Mike_Cirba

Re:You are either brazenly provocative or astonishingly uneducated..
« Reply #10 on: September 26, 2007, 10:06:34 AM »
Jeff,

I think you're just being brazenly provocative.

 ;D

Dan Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:You are either brazenly provocative or astonishingly uneducated..
« Reply #11 on: September 26, 2007, 10:13:39 AM »
There is no "greatest course." The higher you go on the rankings, the more ludicrous the whole idea of "ranking" becomes.

(I believe this is a corollary to Mr. Brauer's second brazenly provocative or astonishingly uneducated point.)

"There's no money in doing less." -- Joe Hancock, 11/25/2010
"Rankings are silly and subjective..." -- Tom Doak, 3/12/2016

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:You are either brazenly provocative or astonishingly uneducated..
« Reply #12 on: September 26, 2007, 10:14:28 AM »
Mike,

perhaps so....

However, to stay in character, the proper answer to Phil would have been:

There you go again, giving him WAY too much credit.  I will credit Tillie with a great marketing peice, making (as gca's do now) it seem very mysterious....just enough to discourage anyone at home from trying it!

If he was really wrting about design philosophy, why wouldn't he have just said "I provide more receptive contours from the premium side of the fw by tilting the green up to that side to better help stop a shot?"

He was writing to sell his services, not inform the masses.  As such, its all a bit suspect to use any quotes to really determine what he was thinking.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

John Kavanaugh

Re:You are either brazenly provocative or astonishingly uneducated..
« Reply #13 on: September 26, 2007, 10:23:16 AM »


He was writing to sell his services, not inform the masses.  As such, its all a bit suspect to use any quotes to really determine what he was thinking.
 

The above is perfect reasoning for the Fazio book.  He was not writing to critics, he was writing to members and potential clients.

Peter Pallotta

Re:You are either brazenly provocative or astonishingly uneducated..
« Reply #14 on: September 26, 2007, 10:31:35 AM »
"I don't know, sometimes I like flat greens. I think they look pretty, and very natural too. That's what I would look for if I was an architect, a patch of round, flat ground, and I'd put my green there and worry about the rest of the hole and the routing later. Flat greens are especially good if there are no bunkers around them, just the flat, round green surrounded by rough. You can't run the ball up, you have to hit one high and soft. It's better if they are quite small, like 5,000 square feet, so that the inaccurate iron player pays a big penalty, seemingly incommensurate with the degree of his miss. And if they are also slow and a bit bumpy, that's the best of all, because then the good putter doesn't have much of an advantage over the bad one."
« Last Edit: September 26, 2007, 11:00:18 AM by Peter Pallotta »

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:You are either brazenly provocative or astonishingly uneducated..
« Reply #15 on: September 26, 2007, 10:34:24 AM »


He was writing to sell his services, not inform the masses.  As such, its all a bit suspect to use any quotes to really determine what he was thinking.
 

The above is perfect reasoning for the Fazio book.  He was not writing to critics, he was writing to members and potential clients.


Aren't they all?


Jim_Kennedy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:You are either brazenly provocative or astonishingly uneducated..
« Reply #16 on: September 26, 2007, 10:37:28 AM »
Given: There isn't one living architect who has contributed to this site that hasn't received some form of recognition/accolade for his work, be it here or in golf/trade/travel publications.
In all likelyhood they too will become the beloved ODGs, and probably harbor the desire that their work will still merit discussion,   but I don't think they should rush it.   :o

"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

A.G._Crockett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:You are either brazenly provocative or astonishingly uneducated..
« Reply #17 on: September 26, 2007, 10:39:14 AM »
"You are either brazenly provocative or astonishingly uneducated.."

Why should it be either/or?  Can't I be both?
« Last Edit: September 26, 2007, 10:39:32 AM by A.G._Crockett »
"Golf...is usually played with the outward appearance of great dignity.  It is, nevertheless, a game of considerable passion, either of the explosive type, or that which burns inwardly and sears the soul."      Bobby Jones

Mike_Cirba

Re:You are either brazenly provocative or astonishingly uneducated..
« Reply #18 on: September 26, 2007, 10:53:42 AM »
Mike,

perhaps so....

However, to stay in character, the proper answer to Phil would have been:

There you go again, giving him WAY too much credit.  I will credit Tillie with a great marketing peice, making (as gca's do now) it seem very mysterious....just enough to discourage anyone at home from trying it!

If he was really wrting about design philosophy, why wouldn't he have just said "I provide more receptive contours from the premium side of the fw by tilting the green up to that side to better help stop a shot?"

He was writing to sell his services, not inform the masses.  As such, its all a bit suspect to use any quotes to really determine what he was thinking.

Jeff,

You ignorant slut...



 ;)
« Last Edit: September 26, 2007, 10:59:35 AM by MikeCirba »

RSLivingston_III

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:You are either brazenly provocative or astonishingly uneducated..
« Reply #19 on: September 26, 2007, 11:10:07 AM »
Jeff,
You need to get a set of original green drawings from any of the better Ross courses. Augusta CC would be a good choice.
Having the accompanying hole drawing would would be good as it shows the approach shot values and why he design some of the green contours.
Of course when viewing them you can't impose 2007 golf shots on them.
"You need to start with the hickories as I truly believe it is hard to get inside the mind of the great architects from days gone by if one doesn't have any sense of how the equipment played way back when!"  
       Our Fearless Leader

Phil_the_Author

Re:You are either brazenly provocative or astonishingly uneducated..
« Reply #20 on: September 26, 2007, 11:11:23 AM »
Mike,

Jeff isn't a slut!

Again you are incorrect regarding Tilly. You stated, "He was writing to sell his services, not inform the masses.  As such, its all a bit suspect to use any quotes to really determine what he was thinking."

Jeff, the quotes I gave you were taken from articles that Tilly wrote specifically dealing with aspects of course design and his philosophies. They were not part of a marketing campaign for his services. As they were published in Golf Illustrated they were definitely written for "the masses."

As for his greens draining... so what. A well-designed green will drain properly and they had to account for this back then just as we do today.

As for your observation of how you, "Find it interesting that his comments on green contouring relate more to the approach shot..." Consider what Tilly also wrote:

"That which concerns me most is where the ball lands and exactly what it does after. In most instances the golf holes I plan are conceived in looking backward from a green’s site or from a favorable contour to locate properly the teeing ground."

"The building of a golf course is costly, and it should not be attempted without serious thought."

Tilly designed holes from the perspective of how the greens would accept shots played into them and therefor he would write that he first and formost gave consideration to the green entrances and their contours.

Finally, you wondered, "Given train travel, I wonder how closely those building the courses with his one or two site visits might actually get to that philosophy......."

Although there were some exceptions, Tilly made numerous site visits to the courses he designed regardless of distance. he also provided not only detailed drawings of green complexes, but he himself made and left plasticine models of both greens and holes for the builders to work with. He meticulously demanded that they be followed and reflected in the finish product.

For exmple, his contract with 5 Farms (since the Seniors will be there shortly it is apropos) called for "One Thousand ($1,000) dollars upon the delivery of the plans, specifications and models, and your approval of them." Note he would provide plans and specifications and models. In fact, he actually delayed the project for several weeks after hurting his wrist and being unable to make the plasticine green models for the project. He would do this work on site.

Your turn...

 

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:You are either brazenly provocative or astonishingly uneducated..
« Reply #21 on: September 26, 2007, 11:15:45 AM »
Mike,

perhaps so....

However, to stay in character, the proper answer to Phil would have been:

There you go again, giving him WAY too much credit.  I will credit Tillie with a great marketing peice, making (as gca's do now) it seem very mysterious....just enough to discourage anyone at home from trying it!

If he was really wrting about design philosophy, why wouldn't he have just said "I provide more receptive contours from the premium side of the fw by tilting the green up to that side to better help stop a shot?"

He was writing to sell his services, not inform the masses.  As such, its all a bit suspect to use any quotes to really determine what he was thinking.

Jeff,

You ignorant slut...



 ;)

Wow,

Jane Curtain looks TERRIBLE in that photo!

Ralph,

I have spent several days in the Tufts Library looking at Ross green plans.  Most mention where to get cut and fill and so forth, rather than any detailed strategy or design thoughts.  That in part was the basis of my original brazen statement.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:You are either brazenly provocative or astonishingly uneducated..
« Reply #22 on: September 26, 2007, 11:17:44 AM »
Phillip,

You are giving him way too much credit.....that's my story and I'm sticking to it!
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:You are either brazenly provocative or astonishingly uneducated..
« Reply #23 on: September 26, 2007, 11:20:19 AM »
Phillip,

BTW, define numerous?  I make 30-60 site visits. I bet Tilly was 3 to 6, making it much harder to control every aspect.  I take his wide variance of style from course to course as proof that he left a lot of details to whatever construction crew was on board, even given the shorter construction times of the day.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Powell Arms

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:You are either brazenly provocative or astonishingly uneducated..
« Reply #24 on: September 26, 2007, 11:20:50 AM »
that, based on launch optimaization, etc, the game is already bifurcated and therefore the equipment section of the rules should be adjusted to acknowledge this and create a competition ball
PowellArms@gmail.com
@PWArms