Sleepy Hollow post Gil Hanse and George Bahto

[Jeff Loh]

Played there last Friday. Had seen some of the work in progress in the spring but it now seems close to being finished. WOW! The place looks amazing--some fine new bunkers and far fewer trees. Some of the previoulsy obscured vistas are absolutely stunning, esp from the 16th tee. Looking up the mighty Hudson for miles makes a man feel small.
Also, some new back tees have provided extra teeth to combat hot balls and 460cc drivers. A much different course from the new "tips". I saw that Mike Sweeney on another post had some nice things to say as well. If the club desires I think it would be a great venue for some top notch competitions. Would be curious to hear from others who have played it recently. Very cool in my humble opinion.

[brad_miller]

Wonderful changes, will be even better regarding the vistas after one more winter of planned tree work. Each and every hole has been improved, better angles, more strategy (bunkers that challenge) and even with many trees removed a much more difficult test. Holes that seemed most improved IMO are number 2, 4, 5* Maybe my favorite hole, 6, 12, 13, 15, 16 17 and 18. The removal of the Rees Jones mounds around number 5 is stunning, basically it has become almost a skyline green. The new angled tee is a dramatic improvement with a cool mound to aim over. Intersting number 8 which many had considered the best hole would probably not make my top 5 favorite. The effort that the membership put in should be well rewarded. You must give them credit for not moving forward with a vastly inferior plan from another architect even after spending the money on such plan.

Finally the vistas of the 3rd nine holes are great, it looks like the classic courses of yesteryear, if pictures were posted in B&W it might be hard to think they were not taken many many years ago.

[PThomas]

Wonderful changes, will be even better regarding the vistas after one more winter of planned tree work. Each and every hole has been improved, better angles, more strategy (bunkers that challenge) and even with many trees removed a much more difficult test. Holes that seemed most improved IMO are number 2, 4, 5* Maybe my favorite hole, 6, 12, 13, 15, 16 17 and 18. The removal of the Rees Jones mounds around number 5 is stunning, basically it has become almost a skyline green. The new angled tee is a dramatic improvement with a cool mound to aim over. Intersting number 8 which many had considered the best hole would probably not make my top 5 favorite. The effort that the membership put in should be well rewarded. You must give them credit for not moving forward with a vastly inferior plan from another architect even after spending the money on such plan.

Finally the vistas of the 3rd nine holes are great, it looks like the classic courses of yesteryear, if pictures were posted in B&W it might be hard to think they were not taken many many years ago.

thanks Brad

if i understand correctly, the course was headed down one path, the Rees Jones path, and then the membership stopped and went back to restoring the course.....what prompted the switch back after they had already started down the other one? thanks

[brad_miller]

Paul, my understanding was the Rees path had gone on years back. the new path was with a guy that has done a fair amount of work in the greater NYC area. Luckly they saw the light and enlisted Gil and George to unight the course to the spirit of one style, ie CBM/Raynor. That said I believe they asked that the course be redone too that style while at the same time adding increased strategy and some additional length. I am sure others can better handle this one, this is just my understanding.

[mark chalfant]

Brad
im really glad to hear the good news.  is  #11 or 12 being  changed from  a long 4  to a medium par five. if so,how will the new hole be configured. any effect  on #13. Will a ravine come in to play

thanks

[brad_miller]

The change on 12 makes for a better routing. Dodleg left par 5 with green right beside the front tee on #13. You need to walk back about 50 yards to get to the other tees on number 13. The hole plays thru the ravine with a creek running thru that has to be considered during the second shot.

[Mike Sweeney]

..what prompted the switch back after they had already started down the other one? thanks

Certainly Corey Miller should get some credit and he did when I ran into an old friend last week who has been a member for 20 years. As I posted on the old Mucci thread, it may be the best and/or most fun course in Westchester now. The final four holes combine quirk (punchbowl, blind), beautiful vistas and Hudson River views, with now a very difficult 18th as a finish that probably plays 470 even though it will say 440 on the card.

[JMorgan]

..what prompted the switch back after they had already started down the other one? thanks

Certainly Corey Miller should get some credit and he did when I ran into an old friend last week who has been a member for 20 years. As I posted on the old Mucci thread, it may be the best and/or most fun course in Westchester now. The final four holes combine quirk (punchbowl, blind), beautiful vistas and Hudson River views, with now a very difficult 18th as a finish that probably plays 470 even though it will say 440 on the card.

I think you may be right, Mike.  I've only poked my nose in here and there, but I'd bet the work ranks up there in significance with the recent changes at Yale.  

[Mike Sweeney]

I think you may be right, Mike.  I've only poked my nose in here and there, but I'd bet the work ranks up there in significance with the recent changes at Yale.  

I don't want to beat a dead horse, but this is apples and oranges.

Similar to Bethpage, Yale was a great course trying to find its own skin again. Rulewich did what he did and Scott Ramsey is cleaning it up and bringing it back to its former greatness.

Sleepy is a great club (18+9 holes, horses, squash......) with a formerly good to very good course that has been renovated in a Macdonald theme on top of Macdonald, Rees, Tully bones. Makes me think of Doak's work at Atlantic City which I played before but not after Doak's work, but have seen enough pics to form this opinion. Is Sleepy great? People will have to see next year when it is finished.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mike Sweeney,

I think that SH has UN-Westchester like qualities, which is what makes it so enjoyable.

It's not a narrow tree lined course.

And, there's a lot of variety in the holes.

Certainly the setting and facility can't go unnoticed either.

[corey miller]

The restoration/renovation at Sleepy Hollow is still a work in progress but I do think we are getting close.  Areas are still growing in and we do have some tree work to attend to over the winter.  

It has been a long process and I now understand how easy it can be for clubs to go in the wrong direction. Overcoming club politics/member input especially in a country club can be a daunting task.  Often you are dealing with people who have only been exposed to the architectural conventional wisdom of the PGA tour.  

Anyway, the club did have a prior master plan from a renovation guy who has done a lot of work in the NY area.  I am not sure what the clubs mandate was other than fixing of the poorly constructed Rees era bunkering.   The plan basically consisted of building Tille like WF bunkering into the Rees berming.  In my view, though it did profess to be a "restoration" plan, it was a plan designed to be easily accepted by a then uneducated membership.  It did not address the restoration basics of tree work, fairway and green expansion but rather focused on adding distance and narrowing fairways for "challenge" .  I can only imagine what the extremely wide and undulating hole corriders at Sleepy would have looked like with a narrow strip of fairway down the middle.

A new green chairman came on board with the mandate to start the work.  In the course of his own due diligence and willingness to become educated it was determined that perhaps we were going down the wrong road.  

Both the finalists for the job recommended having a unified theme for the course and both recommeneded Macdonald.  I have a lot of respect for the architect we did not choose as he gave the Macdonald answer fully knowing we had interviewed Hanse and Bahto who  probably  had more Macdonald/Raynor experience.

Clearly, Sleepy Hollow was not Macdonalds best effort and was sorely lacking in much bunkering strategy.  I remember seeing a Tom Macwood list of the top 100 courses in the USA circa 1935.  Sleepy Hollow was not on this list so in my mind it did not necessitate "restoring/returning" to anything.  I guess my cop-out answer is that we are "restoring a classic look".  With that in mind we gave Gil and George a blank slate and sat back and listened.

I had Gil's hole drawings prior to his touring the course and explaining his proposals.  My inclination was that he had no chance to succeed with all his suggestions.  Well Gil is very persausive and he did succeed including the bold proposal of building a new hole and no longer using our 1 handicap #12.  Truth be told, it was not a very good hole but members liked it because it was a "challenge" 440 yard uphill.  

One of the best decisions our chairman made was that either the plan was going to be approved in it's entirety or it was not.  We were not going with the chinese menu approach.  I would suggest this to any club going through this process.  Our club visits during the due diligence process showed far to many examples of clubs, and even memberships voting on indivual features.

Major features of the work are:

1. We have shortened the "total walk" on the course from the middle teeing areas thus improving the routing.

2. We have lenghtened the course some 300 yards while also improving the routing. I suspect the "total walk" is less even with the added yardage.

3. Tree work that was not only for playability issues but to open up some wonderful vistas.  

4. Our 15th hole was a par 5 punchbowl hole that had once played at 440 (par 4) but had been extended over the years.  Gil and George thought it was important to return this significant hole to a 4 par.  The hole did not work well even from a routing perspective as you walked back 150 yards from 14 to 15 to tee off.  Gil found a new par 5 12th hole that would use a natural ravine and stream with a greensite next to the 13th tee.  Original drawings prior to the Tillie work show the ravine used but it was never built this way and necessitated a long walk across a bridge from 12 to 13.

There is not a hole on the course that hasn't been improved and though the course always scored well in the "walk in the park test", that also has been much improved.  

[corey miller]

Pat

First, thanks for your help in setting me straight at times during this process and certainly your encouragement.  Speaking to those with experience in "the process" was invaluable.

I spoke with Ran a while ago and he asked why I thought what we have done is special? My answer was "it does not feel like a  typical Westchester course".

[Tommy Williamsen]

I did not see SH before the changes, but was there in June and saw some of the work being done on the bunkering.  It looked great and would like to get back there to see the finished product.  It is great place and now the course should match the setting.

[David_Madison]

I played there last Friday for the first time and was very impressed. The course was a ton of fun to play, with a great deal of variety, risk/reward, and intriguing shots that could be played many different ways. The #5 - #7 loop might have been my favorite; wished that I could have played it a bunch more times.  

[Rich Goodale]

Good to hear good things about Sleepy Hollow.  My father used to hold a tournament for his friends there in the 1970's, and always had good things to say about the place.