[Joe Hancock]

Brad,

Are those pics from this past weekend? I heard the course was in fantastic condition.

Joe

[Brad Swanson]

Joe,
   Those pics were from this July.  I was up last weekend and the conditions were superb both times, but the greens were much quicker last weekend than my visit in July.  The contour of those greens combined with last weekend's speeds made for some exhilirating short game play.  The course was firm, but much greener last weekend.  I didn't take any pictures, last weekend, although the fall colors were close to peak and would've made for some great photos.

Cheers,
Brad

[Mark Pearce]

Brad,

I think those pictures demonstrate that we're talking different things on different sides of the ocean.  That course is, to my eye, green, though it may well be firm and fast.  Brown is when significant proprtions of the fairway are khaki.

The point about higher and lower points was ideally demonstrated at Alwoodley on Wednesday, where they have fairways built on old rig and furrow agricultural land.  The tops of the rigs were brown, the bottom of the furrows green

[TEPaul]

Adam:

When you answered JESII above about weaning turf off over-irrigation you mentioned the result in playability, although you did say that higher spots get browner than lower spots etc.

The color or condition of grass in what might be called a "transition period" (Sully's 2 year 25% turf loss statement) generally speaking and somewhat depending on the course, will go through a period of what might be called "managed turf loss".

That's essentially a form of a Darwinian process of killing off weaker grass so that stronger strains will take their place---eg deeping rooting is an indication of the stronger grass.

Scott Anderson who happens to be the super at JESII's club was probably one of the first to experiment with this process in transitioning a really over-irrigated golf course (HVGC) from years of saturation to a much much drier program and one based more on organics than chemicals.

That process began over 25 years ago and it was apparently one of the first in America on a formerly over-irrigated inland golf course.

Sometimes Anderson refers to that Darwinian process as "hardening off" various strains of grass particularly various strains of poa annua.

On another post someone mentioned courses that completely brown out (mostly courses in Europe but the likes of Maidstone, Newport and Fishers Island over here are the same) and can have their grass transition from almost total brown back to green in a day or two after rain.

That can happen on the three courses mentioned in America that do not have fairway irrigation and over time their grass has just become really tough and enduring.

I think it's true to say that the so-called "dormancy" period of grass like that is just a whole lot longer than that of grass that's used to regular and consistent irrigation practices.

[TEPaul]

At my course (GMGC) we recently made an alteration, mostly to speed the course up going into our big annual tournament, from using both growth regulators AND bio-stimulants to just using growth regulators.

We also altered our top-dressing mix to one of a higher sand content. We did this through a green aeration cycle about three weeks before the tournament.

Since there's been little rain the results were pretty interesting.

The greens got the speed we were looking for but the results of the aeration process were really visible causing a lot of people to say the greens looked in bad shape. But they played well in the realm of speed.

On the side of firmness it seems to me the higher sand content of the topdressing made the greens play more receptive than firm.

Our super said if he'd continued with the bio stimulants the results of the recent aeration would not have been visible (as visible) but we could not have gotten the speed we were looking for.

I must say I'm not completely convinced of this but probably only because I don't really know what I'm talking about in the world of these kinds of agronomic decisions.  

Anyway, the whole thing was explained by both the super and the green committee (which I'm on) as something of a trade-off.

The fact was we just weren't getting the speed on the greens the members were looking for and asking for and this was what we did to get that.

So we got the speed they were asking for but we also got a "look" they didn't much like.

And so ends the first lesson in green committee, playablity and agronomic maintenance decisionism.  

[Brad Swanson]

Mark,
   I don't think any course that is seeded in the fairways with bluegrass can be really brown and remain healthy/viable like fescue can, but I could be wrong..  Also, those pictures don't really convey they amount of brown that was on the peaks of the humps that day.  These pictures may be a little more telling.





During the visit when those pictures were taken, the course changed color from the morning round to the afternoon round, with the tan peaks really coming out late in the day.  I don't think it would've been advisable to take it much browner on a 2 year old course in drought conditions.  At any rate, its not really about the color for me, as the course was much greener on a recent visit but just as firm, and the greens much speedier.  Green doesn't always equal bad, especially in the fall in the upper Midwest.



Cheers,
Brad

[Adam Clayman]

TePaul, Thanks for the clarification. I'm very familiar with the multi-strain approach inorder to find the toughest of them. This year Mother nature took care of the Poa Annua. Killed her dead. (Not Ballyneal) Rather than bitch about the look, because the playability of the dead grass was fine, we were looking into when would be the optimal time to drill in new seed before the Poa had a chance to resurface.

What I probably don't get(and never will) is this reference to members who won't tolerate the look. Appeasing ignorance versus the satisfaction that comes from knowing, I suppose.

[RJ_Daley]

I think in all fairness to supers that maintain high traffic courses, that have design elements that would actually be more enhanced by firm, fast and allowed to flirt on the edge of browness, we have to ask; how many rounds are played there?  

How many rounds are played at Hunnington Valley where Scott supers?  How many rounds at Maidenstone and Fisher's Island.  

When one says that a multi year program is needed where a few years of turf loss sacrifice is made to harden off the cultivars, and allow the Darwinism to ensue, what sort of pre-commitment to the super is made that 'everyone' will understand if the weakening turf gets invaded with a devestating disease and even more than this magical 25% turf loss occurs?  Will they presign the super's contract stating we undertake that understanding that the process is precarious and heavy losses may occur in weakened turf, that is fighting to survive and 'harden off'?

I'm going to start another thread on what can induce or incentivize all courses to pilot or experiment with weaning the turf off of intense maintenance, overwatering, that will give the supers a safety net for if and when things go to hell in a hand basket due to untimely drought to the courses in transition.

[JESII]

Dick,

You touch on the primary obstacle in this process...one which I tried to note in my first post on this thread by saying the superintendents will not be the driving force behind this move...not because they don't believe in it, but because very few clubs will offer this safety net you speak of.

It's a very tough issue.

As far as # of rounds at HVCC...I really have no idea...our season is roughly April 1 - November 1, but there are plenty of days in the off-season that we'll play. It is a fully populated private country club with 27 holes, and when I go to play (not too often) it is rarely crowded. Not sure what that means for an overall number though...

What I probably don't get(and never will) is this reference to members who won't tolerate the look. Appeasing ignorance versus the satisfaction that comes from knowing, I suppose.

Adam,

These are businesses after all, and in this area it's a competitive business...loads of clubs looking for your annual dues. Not an easy group to "educate"...

[TEPaul]

Dick:

The chances of having a massive turf loss are probably just as great on a saturated course as on a dry one, even one going through the transition period. Maybe even greater.

(When HVGC went to a dry program over 25 years ago it was in reaction to a total turf loss on the course due to over saturation. Linc Roden who precipitated the change back then referred to playing the previous over-saturated course as "rowing down the fairway" ).

But it is true that a club must inform its membership in detail about what a course will look like during that transition period and even what it will look like when the mission is accomplished.

We didn't do that last year and when we got hit by a really hot dry August the membership wasn't ready for the way the course looked and they really complained. The course and the turf was just fine though and when it finally rained it got green again in a day or two. The grass wasn't dead, it just went into brown dormancy, and that, as I understand it, was the result of our five year drying out transition period and program.

This year they understand what to expect if it happens again.

[Adam Clayman]

The case of Pinon Hills is an interesting one in this regard.

Governed by a non-golfing city manager and Parks and Rec head, the marching were "I don't care what it looks like as long as it is green".

Well, after years of use, many of the heads had to over-work to get full coverage. Once the heads were replaced and the system tweaked Alan Salter was able to get the turf to a happy medium. Green grass with a firm underlying mat and on a daily basis.
Now, Alan has gone on to greener pastures (sorry) and Mario Ulibari has been brought back-in as a temporary. Ironically, all of the good work Alan had done is out the window and Mario has gone back to the over-watering regime.

In this case, a high desert golf course, during the original transition to less watering there was no grass dying.

What this situation taught me was that the difference between an over-watered canvas, and, a level of firmness needed to provide some semblance of bounce and roll, is not all that large.
So, I conclude that a majority of supers take it just that little bit too far.

Perhaps germaine although in the opposite direction is the case of Wild Horse.

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