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John Kirk

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Uh-Oh! Pacific Dunes Loses A Little Luster
« on: September 21, 2007, 11:59:32 AM »
A couple of weeks ago, my wife and I drove down to Bandon to play Bandon Crossings.  I decided to make a weekend of it, and booked a night at the resort, plus a round at Pacific Dunes the next morning.

Bandon Crossings was a pleasant surprise, quiet and uncrowded on a Saturday afternoon, while many Oregonians were watching the state football team pound Michigan.  The course is a quirky, mimimal style design, with beautiful par threes and plenty of variety.  Nice place, like playing golf in somebody's really nice backyard, which, in essence, is the case.  We met the owners and had a nice chat afterwards.  Great time.

That evening we checked into our Chrome Lake suite.  It's a busy time of year at the Resort, and the lodge was a swirl of activity, filled with hundreds of nameless golf guys, just like the others I had seen there before.  The front desk incorrectly informed us that all resort restaurants were booked for the evening, but we were easily able to secure a table at the Asian influenced Trails End.  My wife’s sea scallops dinner was wonderful, her best restaurant meal of the year.

Early next morning we played the great Pacific Dunes, for many years my favorite place to play.  We were blessed or cursed with a calm day, windless for the first nine or ten holes, followed by a most unusual southwest summer wind, due to a phenomenon known as a temperature low, due to unusually warm inland conditions.  The course, set up for the typical northerly fair weather wind, now played easy up to the 13th green, and tougher back to the clubhouse.

I played from the back tees, and managed to start par-birdie the first couple holes while getting loose.  Got a great up and down from 77 yards on #4 for par.  With the exception of the 7th hole, I scored very well for sixteen holes, before screwing up the final two holes.

It was a strange day.  Somehow, after twenty-some odd plays, the magic was gone.  I played OK, but not that great, and managed to keep it around par all day, something that had escaped me in the past.  While it’s true that I continue to improve at the game, I didn’t expect to handle the course on an off day so easily.  I found it uninspiring and lacking challenge.  It seemed like every putt on the recently sanded greens broke an inch or two.  The turf and bunkers looked a bit weary from the constant play.  I hit a 4-wood approach into #7, a 4-iron into #10, and another 4-wood into #18 after mis-hitting my second shot on #18.  Otherwise, I never hit more than 8-iron into a green.  I laid up on #4 to set up the great up and down.  #13 was downwind and driver, 8-iron to the back of the green.  I never used four clubs: 7-wood, and 5-7 irons.

What does this mean?  Why didn’t I enjoy the round more?  Some possible explanations:

1.   Bandon Dunes has changed through the years, more popular and less personal.  Perhaps I’m spoiled by my recent transition to the private golf experience.  We were paired with two fine gentlemen, but the experience was less intimate than would be with friends.  At one point, we fell a hole or two off pace, and had to rush through holes 10 through 12 to catch up.
2.   We were tired from driving for 5 hours and playing Bandon Crossings the day before.   Fatigue is a key factor in course evaluation and enjoyment.  After 25 or so rounds, maybe I’ve played Pacific Dunes enough times where I’m tired of playing there.  But it had been a couple years, and I expected to enjoy it more, even on a calm day.
3.   Maybe I just got lucky, and was presented with easy shots and easy putts to read, despite playing indifferently.  The course seemed short and the putting seemed easy.  I realize that Pacific plays plenty long for the average resort guest, but a great course still must challenge the low handicapper.

I’m no longer sure Pacific Dunes is my favorite course.  Recently, I’ve been playing a longer, more complex course, with more uneven lies and far more interest and undulation around the greens.  It’s very private and in superb condition.  The transition has occurred; I’d rather play Ballyneal.

A few weeks ago, John Kavanaugh made the following comment:  “I don’t think there is any doubt that Pacific Dunes is Doak’s best work, and it was very early in his career.”  This is a curious remark, since John’s previous comments indicated he liked Ballyneal better.  Pacific Dunes is presently the consensus choice as Doak’s finest American “work”.  I’ve played Stone Eagle, and have seen Wicked Pony in its early stages of development.  Stone Eagle is flawed, but spectacularly beautiful, and with creative bunkering and severe greens.  Wicked Pony is built upon a gentle, terraced piece of high desert, and will be challenging, though far less severe and dramatic than previous notable efforts.  It looks different and great.  Pacific Dunes may ultimately be viewed as a course where compromises were made to cater to the resort golfer.  I sincerely hope the Old Macdonald course is created with the same uncompromising standards at The National Golf Links of America, whose green complexes are bold and stunning.

Most popular musicians are fully formed by the time they become major recording artists, and most times, I think the first or second album or CD is their best.  Great bands like the Beatles or the Rolling Stones continue to evolve, and their best work comes a few years later.  There are rare cases where a musician reaches his peak late in life; I saw Stephane Grappelli perform in his 70s.  I’d like to believe that the artistry of golf architecture is more like jazz, learned slowly through experience, and not the product of an early profusion of ideas.
« Last Edit: September 22, 2007, 09:50:34 AM by John Kirk »

Tom Huckaby

Re:Uh-Oh! Pacific Dunes Loses A Little Luster
« Reply #1 on: September 21, 2007, 12:21:35 PM »
John:

I think you know why this transition in favorite course has occurred; you spelled it out yourself.

At Pacific Dunes you are forced to deal with crowds and the unwashed masses, and all that resort golf represents.  At Ballyneal you get to hang out with the O'Neals and Rick Schmitz.

 ;)

I say that light-heartedly of course, but I think you said it yourself:  you've transitioned to the private experience.  It's more fun for you to play Ballyneal.  On top of that, the resort most definitely gets more and more impersonal, crowded, and filled with nameless trophy-seeking golf dudes each year.  So your relative distaste for Bandon and preference for Ballyneal has to be wholly expected.  

But as for which course represents Doak's greater work.. and which will go down as such... that has to be a question wholly separate from your experiential observations, wouldn't you say?

I've never been to Ballyneal so of course I don't know.  

TH
« Last Edit: September 21, 2007, 12:23:03 PM by Tom Huckaby »

Bill_McBride

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Re:Uh-Oh! Pacific Dunes Loses A Little Luster
« Reply #2 on: September 21, 2007, 12:26:56 PM »
John, two possibilities:

1.  You are getting jaded from all the great golf courses you've been playing.

2.  You are playing so well right now that Pacific Dunes seems too easy.  That was certainly the case at Arcadian Bluffs, although the back nine ate us all up.

I'm leaning toward #1, as I do think Pacific Dunes deserves its reputation as one of America's finest courses.

Will adding a fourth course to Bandon Dunes Resort improve or degrade the experience there?  That remains to be seen.

PThomas

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Uh-Oh! Pacific Dunes Loses A Little Luster
« Reply #3 on: September 21, 2007, 12:27:39 PM »
first of all, congrats on your recent championship John

a very interesting post, to say the least....I too LOVE PD.....i've probably played it 6 times or so, and look forward to my next playing of it as much as I did the first time 10 days after it opened

your post reminded me of something T Doak wrote in his book:""...Macdonald, like many other architects, seems to have built his masterpiece right at the start (rather than the culmination) of his career.  Consider also Tillinghast's SFGC, Dye's Crooked Stick, Nicklaus' Muirfield Village, and such individual efforts as Pebble BEach, Oakmont, Merion, and Pine Valley - all the first large-scale projects attempted by their designers and arguably as good as any they built in their careers.  Is it possible that architects use up all their original ideas early on, and live off that success forever after?  Donald Ross and ALister MacKenzie provide notable exceptions to that theory, but maybe that is just more evidence in the case to make them the best of the bunch."                          

Ballyneal certainly is superb as well, and of course a more intimate experience being a private club

playing either is a great thrill...picking between the two is certainly a difficult choice



199 played, only Augusta National left to play!

Jason Topp

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Uh-Oh! Pacific Dunes Loses A Little Luster
« Reply #4 on: September 21, 2007, 12:34:13 PM »
John:

Thanks for starting the thread.  I always like perspectives that differ from the standard viewpoint.

Was this your first time playing the course in calm winds?  

 I have found any links course to be less inspiring without wind - my 2nd round at the Old Course was a particularly vivid example for me.

Michael Dugger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Uh-Oh! Pacific Dunes Loses A Little Luster
« Reply #5 on: September 21, 2007, 12:39:54 PM »
John,

A great course is allowed to give up a good round.  You admittedly played it in easy conditions.

Let a 40 mph wind kick up and it is a different story.

I agree about the feel of the place anymore, I too tire of the masses.  NIMBY, for sure.
What does it matter if the poor player can putt all the way from tee to green, provided that he has to zigzag so frequently that he takes six or seven putts to reach it?     --Alistair Mackenzie--

John Kavanaugh

Re:Uh-Oh! Pacific Dunes Loses A Little Luster
« Reply #6 on: September 21, 2007, 01:00:48 PM »
I only played Pacific Dunes once and that was in an alternate shot format.  We played the entire round without either of us hitting into or out of a bunker so I personally am not qualified to say if the course is better than Ballyneal or not.  I went with the general consensus of the world and not my somewhat questionably qualified opinion when saying Pacific Dunes was Doak's best work.

I would say that Pacific Dunes has become more of a studio album while Ballyneal remains a live concert.


Jed Peters

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Uh-Oh! Pacific Dunes Loses A Little Luster
« Reply #7 on: September 21, 2007, 01:16:07 PM »
A very interesting topic and post.

I get through the Bandon doldrums this way:

1. I only play in the winter, when the crowds are down.
2. My annual "pilgrimage" to Pac is the day after Xmas. Last year we played 40 plus holes and they only put out 8 groups the entire day. It felt like I was playing a private club.
3. The course, with no wind, is VERY easy. That doesn't make it less fun, however. It's a "fun" golf course.
4. There is no doubt it feels (in the summer) like a turnstile type of place. Very impersonal, shuffle in, shuffle out. It HAS to be that way. In 99 when I went, we were helping ourselves behind the bar when we went at the lounge downstairs, and just writing up what we took. Hell, being the only guests in the resort for 2 nights xmas 1999, my wife and I "broke in" the spa in the lodge!
5. It's a RESORT and has to play as such. If they kept the course up like I'm sure that TD would want, or like ballyneal, we'd get 5 hour rounds being the norm like I hear Chambers is.  You can't have a handicap maximum like they do in GB&I.
6. With a steady wind, I'm hitting a bunch of different clubs....from 180 yard drivers (killing it) and 220 yard 7 or 8 irons.

When I last played PD with no wind, I was -1 through 12, and I'm a 4 handicap. Of course I played the last 6 in +7 (ouchie).

David Stamm

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Uh-Oh! Pacific Dunes Loses A Little Luster
« Reply #8 on: September 21, 2007, 01:48:58 PM »
  I’d like to believe that the artistry of golf architecture is more like jazz, learned slowly through experience, and not the product of an early profusion of ideas.



A very interesting quote John. I tend to agree.
"The object of golf architecture is to give an intelligent purpose to the striking of a golf ball."- Max Behr

Joe Bentham

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Uh-Oh! Pacific Dunes Loses A Little Luster
« Reply #9 on: September 21, 2007, 02:12:13 PM »
John--
sanded greens aren't a golf courses fault.  Yes the greens @pac have been slow for 3 weeks or so.   Yes they break less right now.  
South winds have nothing to do with inland temperatures.  And a summer southie isn't much wind at all.  "Nae wind, Nae golf..".  
Is Ballyneal better then Pac?  Don't know, never been to Holyoke.  But if it is its not because its in better shape.   You also make it sound as if Pac is flat.  Not sure Pac's flat compared to anything.  And the public vs. private issue would explain some of the 'tameness' (relative to Ballyneal, Pac isn't tame at all) YOU see in Pac dunes.  
They way I see it, most other things being equal Pac's got the ocean.

Eric Olsen

Re:Uh-Oh! Pacific Dunes Loses A Little Luster
« Reply #10 on: September 21, 2007, 02:29:13 PM »
I bet I have played Pacific Dunes at least 30 times, in a wide variety of conditions.  

I would very much welcome the opportunity to experience Ballyneal and would gladly give a full report to the group!   ;) My Columbus Day weekend may be open with my wife away on a book group trip.

Mike Wagner

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Uh-Oh! Pacific Dunes Loses A Little Luster
« Reply #11 on: September 21, 2007, 02:55:53 PM »
Two thoughts come to mind:

1.  When you're playing well, no course seems tough.  
2.  Play it further back if you can.

As BD is my favorite place in the world, this thread depresses me a little.  It's like Heidi Klum's husband saying he doesn't enjoy sex with her anymore...

Tim Pitner

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Uh-Oh! Pacific Dunes Loses A Little Luster
« Reply #12 on: September 21, 2007, 03:30:18 PM »
Other than the first time I played Pacific Dunes, I've never found it to be a very difficult course.  In fact, I've consistently scored better on PD than on BD, even though BD would appear to be the more generous course.  However, since 2001 and over three subsequent visits to the resort and about 9 rounds on Pacific Dunes, the course hasn't lost any luster to me.  It's a gem and appeals to me more than Ballyneal.  Ballyneal is probably more challenging to the very low handicapper.  The resort is more popular than I would prefer, but you can't do much about that.  

Adam Clayman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Uh-Oh! Pacific Dunes Loses A Little Luster
« Reply #13 on: September 21, 2007, 03:45:31 PM »
Ballyneal has the luxury of not having features that appease the retail golfer.

 :o
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Eric_Terhorst

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Uh-Oh! Pacific Dunes Loses A Little Luster
« Reply #14 on: September 21, 2007, 03:46:31 PM »
John,

"What does it mean?  Why didn’t I enjoy the round more?"
Maybe the question should be How do I make it new again?

PD loses luster only in comparison to a stratospheric standard, and your most recent experience suggests that it’s simply time for you to take a few years off.  (To think about the difference, for example, between Bandon and what passes for high-end public golf in Chicago just makes me nauseous.)  I also like Jed’s idea of visiting only in the winter, and you may remember from their posts that Huckaby’s crew had a great time in the winter, when it was All-of-Them vs. Nature, more than just one guy trying to tame the golf course.  

Maybe you don’t like wet-weather golf.  Ok, extending Kavanaugh’s analogy, I found recently that when I bought some new stereo equipment, I discovered sounds on 30-year old albums that I had never heard before.  “Kind of Blue” sounded like a fresh masterpiece, even though I’d heard it over and over again on my old equipment.  In your case, maybe you’ve gotten so good that you need to go backward--I have a beautiful old 7-degree Macgregor persimmon driver with a sweet spot as big as a tack, and a bag of balata balls I could send you!

Maybe you’re enamored of the technology you’re using.  Ok, then next time play it with a bunch of knowledgeable newbies—some who would appreciate it, not just the Top-100 seeking irritants you apparently encountered.  On my last trip, I played my 3rd time with a good friend who was seeing it for the 1st time, and I found I really enjoyed the vicarious thrill.

Or make believe that if you can shoot 69, you get the same from Heidi Klum   :)

Mike Nuzzo

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Uh-Oh! Pacific Dunes Loses A Little Luster
« Reply #15 on: September 21, 2007, 03:54:19 PM »
Mike,

I saw Seal this summer in concert.... don't worry... he still does.  :)
Thinking of Bob, Rihc, Bill, George, Neil, Dr. Childs, & Tiger.

JohnV

Re:Uh-Oh! Pacific Dunes Loses A Little Luster
« Reply #16 on: September 22, 2007, 08:20:56 AM »
Interesting topic John.

You and I have played a lot of golf together and I think that you have always been more concerned with score and challenge to scoring than I have.  Especially at a place like Pacific Dunes, the fun for me is not so much in making a great score as playing all the interesting shots that are possible there.  For that reason, I think that PD will hold up better in the long run for me than it has for you.  I don't care that I might not have hit some of clubs or that I might have had wedges into most of the greens, assuming that the shots were interesting and provided good variety as I think that PD's do.

No doubt that Ballyneal is also wonderful.  Is it better than PD?  Thinking back on it from our time there last year, I can't say so.  While I loved it, it didn't grab me as immediately and fully as PD did.  But, it might also grow on me with more opportunities to play it.  Perhaps I am slower to form strong opinions now than I was back when I first saw PD.

It will be interesting to see if my opinion of PD changes next week. I haven't been there since 2002 and for the first time I'll be playing for a real score as we have our Mid-Am Committee tournament there on Friday.

John Kirk

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Uh-Oh! Pacific Dunes Loses A Little Luster
« Reply #17 on: September 22, 2007, 10:36:10 AM »
Thanks for all the responses.

To answer my own question, it's most likely I felt robbed of a peak golfing experience because there was no wind.  Playing 10 through 13 into the wind, until you stand on the 13th green, feeling on top of the world, is the most exciting stretch of golf I have played on a regular basis.  You then turn around and play downwind towards the clubhouse.  The emotional crescendo reached on the 16th hole at Bandon Dunes is great, but the early peak at Pacific Dunes' 13th is the best.

However, all my thoughts about fatigue, crowds, and just having a strange round where nothing exciting happened were part of the relatively unexciting day.  I can still tell you every shot I hit that day, two weeks after the fact.

Here is one more piece of the puzzle when I evaluate the great course:  Although I have considered Pacific Dunes my favorite course for years, I always attack the course with the same strategy, regardless of wind conditions.  #6 is an excellent example.  Even if the wind is blowing 15 miles and hour into my face (a good 2-3 club wind), I will still try to play driver over that right bunker to get the good angle.  I may tee it lower and try to keep the shot down, but I will always aim for the same spot.  This may be one reason why I have played that hole so successfully over the years.  I own that hole.

By the way, this is not unusual.  There aren't many golf holes I play repeatedly where my strategy changes.  #9 and #16 at Pumpkin Ridge - Witch Hollow are two examples off the top of my head.

I've always played Bandon Dunes about 2-3 shots less than Pacific Dunes, never breaking 76 from the back tees at Pacific.  Last Sunday, assuming double bogey on #7, I was even after 16 holes, before finishing double bogey (shanked 8-iron), bogey and posting a 74, when I didn't feel I deserved it.  I feel that Bandon Dunes, as set up for resort play, is easier to master, scorewise.

I just wanted it to be special, like it always has been.  And on this day, the magic wasn't there.  It happens.


Craig Van Egmond

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Uh-Oh! Pacific Dunes Loses A Little Luster
« Reply #18 on: September 22, 2007, 11:17:11 AM »

John K,

      My memory of you and PD will always be the match between you and Darren K. and the outcome on the 18th hole. Quite a finish.

      We all should be so lucky to play PD enough that it starts to lose a little luster.  ;)


Richard Boult

Re:Uh-Oh! Pacific Dunes Loses A Little Luster
« Reply #19 on: September 22, 2007, 02:19:56 PM »
I just returned last night from my first trip to Bandon. I'm a relatively new golfer who has never played a top-rated course and who has only played 2 average private clubs. I'm in no way qualified to compare PD to Balyneal or any other quality course, but I did get the opportunity to play PD last week in both low and high winds, and as a good golfer (thanks to Advil) and as an average golfer (thanks to back pain) - so perhaps I can provide a varied perspective.

I arrived at Bandon with some ongoing back pain that didn't seem to affect my swing, but did make it difficult to play well for an entire round.

We played BT the first day in mild winds. Relaxed and simply grateful to be taking it all in, I shot a respectable 1-over on the front, but started trying to score on the back and struggled. If it were not for my inability to get out of any bunker in less than 2 shots (four times), it could have been quite a round. I hit every fairway except the 18th. I absolutely loved the views and variety and transitions from dunes to meadow to forest. I'm still undecided on whether I like 14. I drifted right on my drive and ended pin high in the collection area next to the bunkers right of the green. I had no confidence I could lob a shot and stick the narrow green, so I putted up the hill between the 2 bunkers (twice) to the back of the green - and bogied. The view of the green from this perched tee is outstanding.  From the green tees, I found it easy to reach the par 5's in 2 and drove the short par 4 8th. The biggest challenge I faced was on the par 4 11th where I pulled my 9i and landed at the far left side of the green with a front right pin. My 100 foot putt stopped just 1 foot short of entering the lake! My favorite was the par 3 17th where a nice 7i draw into the breeze put me just left of the pin.

The winds were mild the following day at PD as well, perhaps only 10-15 mph. That morning while pulling my bag from the car at the practice facility, I pulled a muscle on the right side in the middle of my back. After trying to swing a couple times and not getting more than half a backswing, I thought I was done for the day. I ran back to the the condo and got some ice and Advil, then decided to at least walk the course in preparation for another round 2 days later. However, once on the 1st tee, I couldn't resist playing.  The "6" Advils hadn't kicked in yet, but the ice had numbed the pain enough that I could make a rather full swing. Unfortunately, I was all over the place on the 1st four holes, duffing approaches and scalding wedges, and started 10-over after 4! I was a little frustrated, but tried to just appreciate where I was.

Then the Advil kicked in... I played the 5th though 18th at only 1 over! I was playing the green tees and found it very easy to reach the par 5's in 2 (including 12 into the wind) and landed the green on the par 4 16th in 1. I had 4 eagle opportunities after the 4th and a 7-footer for birdie on 11, but only managed to score 3 birdies (darn putter). If I could putt and play from bunkers, I could easily have been well under par during this stretch.

Two days later in 25-30 mph winds, I enjoyed getting the opportunity to replay the 1st 4 holes. The only hole I failed to master was the par 4 2nd. I carried the "shoe" bunker the 1st day and got right up next to it the following round in strong winds, but never seemed to pull off a good approach. That greenside bunker on 3 ate me up the 1st round, but I managed to avoid it the next time.

I absolutely loved the stretch from 10 through 13. We played the upper tee on 10 the 1st round, which provided a challenging angle in. I think I hit an 8i unto the green. The next round we played the lower tee into a strong wind and it took a 3h to reach the green. 11 was just breathtaking, tame (9i) with little wind, but quite a challenging 6i during the windy round.  A long drive, stinger 3-wood, and good lag putt gave me an easy tap in birdie on 12 the first day, but I came up about 20 yards short of the green into stronger winds. The view from 13 was worth the trip alone. It was pretty scary to aim left along the cliff, but I wanted that angle into the green, so went for it. That made for an easy approach and par both rounds. I punched a 6i on the windy round and got a little too much draw and found the ball perched on the edge of the cliff, pin high left of the green.  Ah, the difference an inch makes!  

Although I may have preferred PD just slightly to BD, I loved that BD in windy conditions gave me opportunities to hit a 5i anywhere from 145 yards to 210 yards.  The winds seemed more severe at BD than PD since PD seemed to shield you at times from the full force of the wind with more high bluffs and canyons.  I especially enjoyed all the par 3's at BD. I hit a wedge to the front pin on 12, but a clobbered 5i into the wind on 15 came up short, requiring a steep uphill putt from the fairway.  One of my favorites at BD had to be 16.  With a tailwind, I decided to go for the green on this short 301 yard par 4. My first attempt just grazed the right edge of the cliff and fell beachward.  I teed up another and thought I lost another one right, but when I walked up to the green, I found it just off the right edge of the green perched on a grassy knoll just short of the gorse. I chipped up close and 1-putted for bogie!

In summary, I loved that the courses provided such ample fairways, but required that I think and apply sufficient strategy to find a good approach target from the tee while avoiding those deep fairway bunkers. I enjoyed the opportunity to use the slope of the greens to funnel an approach towards the hole. But mostly I treasured the beauty of the place and how well all 3 courses blended with their natural setting. I truly don't understand how you could get tired of any of these courses, even playing them on calm days. I've played my inferior home course, Monarch Dunes, well over 100 times and haven't had a boring round yet.

I do however envy those of you who played these courses before they became so popular. Fortunately, last week was less of a zoo than I imagine June to August are, but it was busy and a little more developed and a little less personal than I anticipated.  I was a little disappointed that it seems only to attract the more affluent golfer and appears to have priced "joe" golfer out. Otherwise it was an incredible experience, once I hope to repeat for years to come.
« Last Edit: September 22, 2007, 04:39:58 PM by R.Boult »

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Uh-Oh! Pacific Dunes Loses A Little Luster
« Reply #20 on: September 22, 2007, 02:27:14 PM »

I just wanted it to be special, like it always has been.  And on this day, the magic wasn't there.  It happens.


JK,


High expectations can be a bitch...it's a real testament to PD that it took 20+ rounds of exceeding them for it to not meet your expectations. It'll re-blow them away next time out, I am sure...just the way it is!

TEPaul

Re:Uh-Oh! Pacific Dunes Loses A Little Luster
« Reply #21 on: September 23, 2007, 11:50:17 AM »
John Kirk:

Was the ball really bouncing and rolling both "through the green" and on the greens during your last round there?

John Kirk

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Uh-Oh! Pacific Dunes Loses A Little Luster
« Reply #22 on: September 24, 2007, 10:30:42 AM »
TEP,

I assume you are asking about Pacific Dunes.  The ball was bouncing very well on the fairways, and a little less than usual on the greens, due to the recent topdressing.  Ballmarks were still difficult to find, though.

The ball sits down so close to the ground on the fairways at Pacific Dunes.  There is very little cushion under the ball, and the margin for error for a clean strike is small.  The grass is not terribly dense there, and seems to lay down, rather than prop the ball up.  As a result, I putt almost everything within 10-15 yards of the green.

I wonder why the grass lays down like that.  In places, it looks like the turf is rolled, but that can't be the case.  It must have something to do with the cool, moist conditions.

Tom Jefferson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Uh-Oh! Pacific Dunes Loses A Little Luster
« Reply #23 on: September 24, 2007, 12:41:27 PM »
John;

It is a particular quality of the fine fescue grasses to not support a ball...the leaf blades are v. fine, and tend to grow horizontally and/or lay down easily.  With the added practice of frequent topdressing of fairway and surrounds turf, there is little or no thatch or crown material..........thus the firm, tight turf and little or no margin for error in striking the ball.

Hope this helps explain why the putter is such a good play from off the greens and even down the fairway!!

Tom



the pres

John Kirk

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Uh-Oh! Pacific Dunes Loses A Little Luster
« Reply #24 on: September 24, 2007, 07:25:01 PM »
Thanks, Tom.  Much appreciated.  At Ballyneal, the grass is a fescue/dwarf blue/bent mix, with fescue generally dominating the playing characteristics.  The ball sits up a bit more.