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TEPaul

Here's a fundamental architecture question for you.
« on: September 21, 2007, 11:01:25 PM »
Forget about the top ranked courses or whatever in the traditional magazine lists----tell me what COURSE (or a very few) you think is the most loved, the most respected, the most admired by the most golfers of all types.

I'm talking about a golf course alone, and not what the "club" of the course means to it.

And if any of you feel you can identify such a thing---it would be most interesting to hear why you feel so many golfers (hopefully of all types) feel that way about it.
« Last Edit: September 21, 2007, 11:04:05 PM by TEPaul »
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Jeff_Brauer

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Re:Here's a fundamental architecture question for you.
« Reply #1 on: September 21, 2007, 11:03:53 PM »
Top of my head, gotta say Pebble Beach, since you mention all types of golfers.
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Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Pat Howard

Re:Here's a fundamental architecture question for you.
« Reply #2 on: September 21, 2007, 11:05:50 PM »
You beat me to the punch Jeff!

For serious golf enthusiasts it's probably St. Andrew's, but when you include ALL golfers, I'd have to say Pebble Beach as well.
« Last Edit: September 21, 2007, 11:06:17 PM by Pat Howard »
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Tom Huckaby

Re:Here's a fundamental architecture question for you.
« Reply #3 on: September 21, 2007, 11:06:47 PM »
Augusta National.

Every golfer watches the Masters, every golfer wants to play it.

Only freaks in here and other curmudgeons want to criticize it.  But I;d bet even the critics would play it if given the chance.


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TEPaul

Re:Here's a fundamental architecture question for you.
« Reply #4 on: September 21, 2007, 11:07:48 PM »
Jeff:

I just posted this thread moments ago and even I haven't really tought about it---but something tells me you're probably right about Pebble Beach. If I was a betting man, I'd bet that one will be the consensus pick at the end of the day.

Would you care to tell us why YOU think it's Pebble Beach?

Don't forget---the question is intended to be only about the golf course.  ;)
« Last Edit: September 21, 2007, 11:09:02 PM by TEPaul »
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Ian Andrew

Re:Here's a fundamental architecture question for you.
« Reply #5 on: September 21, 2007, 11:25:13 PM »
I think the National Golf Links of America.

If you've played it - and that's more the issue - you've had lots of fun, chances to score well, and the setting is spectacular. I don't know a single person who has played it that would not join if they could.

Pebble's the answer because you can play it
« Last Edit: September 21, 2007, 11:27:16 PM by Ian Andrew »
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Adam Clayman

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Re:Here's a fundamental architecture question for you.
« Reply #6 on: September 21, 2007, 11:37:27 PM »
Easily it's Rancho Park in Los Angeles. Why else would you need a color coded system to book tee times? The place has to do the most number of rounds a year than any other course I have ever heard of. Pacific Grove is perhpas next but those California courses get all year long all day long play from all levels of golfers.
« Last Edit: September 22, 2007, 09:47:39 AM by Adam Clayman »
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"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

RJ_Daley

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Re:Here's a fundamental architecture question for you.
« Reply #7 on: September 22, 2007, 12:01:13 AM »
I'd say AGNC and Pebble for reasons of media conditioning, yearly timing and the masses yearning for an ideal.  

First from out of the doldrums of winter, we get the visions of the celebrities and pros coming out of their hybernation, the Pacific ocean with whales and otters cavorting, the whole thing draws golfers in.  Bill Murray joking and playing well like most golfers dream they could do both at the same time...

Then, when the spring sap in the golfers is really running, we get perked up by the music (Carolina Pines or whatever that syrupie music is...) the selling of the illusion of golf perfection, carpet FWs and heavenly cloud greens, and perfect white sand, amidst the magnolias and azealias and the bell is rung and the average golfer salivates on cue.  

But, perhaps the serious golfers might love and admire the craddle, TOC and yearn to walk there.  

Or, maybe the actual answer follows the old saying "drink their booze, schtup their women, but dont say a damn thing about their course" and the real answer is that they love, respect and admire their own course, most.
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Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Here's a fundamental architecture question for you.
« Reply #8 on: September 22, 2007, 12:06:50 AM »
TEPaul,

Its sunny California and it has a little coy pond next to a few fairways.....
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Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Jim Nugent

Re:Here's a fundamental architecture question for you.
« Reply #9 on: September 22, 2007, 01:38:53 AM »
ANGC.  Huck points up the reasons: the Masters, TV, Bobby Jones, having golf magazines, players and commentators tell us for decades how great the course is.  
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JC Jones

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Re:Here's a fundamental architecture question for you.
« Reply #10 on: September 22, 2007, 05:03:10 AM »
I would definitely agree with both Pebble and ANGC.  I do think Pebble gets in the discussion because you CAN play it.  However, I dont think there is a course that the general public knows better than ANGC.  I know casual golfers who get out 4 times a year that can tell me exactly what 10-18 look like at ANGC.  Most people dont watch the AT&T, everyone watches the Masters.  I say ANGC.

Another choice, although it doesnt reach the Pebble status would be Torrey.  It too has hosted a tourney early in the spring for decades and people think it is the cheaper little sister to Pebble.
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I get it, you are mad at the world because you are an adult caddie and few people take you seriously.

Excellent spellers usually lack any vision or common sense.

I know plenty of courses that are in the red, and they are killing it.

wsmorrison

Re:Here's a fundamental architecture question for you.
« Reply #11 on: September 22, 2007, 06:46:28 AM »
By the most golfers of all types?  I doubt it would be an American course since we're talking global here, so it has to be The Old Course.

I get the feeling a lot of the responses that many are from a perspective of golfers' perspective without having played the course.  I find it hard to believe that a majority would choose Pebble Beach after playing it.  Maybe a process that justifies having just paid a stupid sum of money to do so, but not on its merits.  If a poll was taken to list each golfer's top 5, I'm sure it would be on just about every list (not mine) but what do they know?  ;)
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Mike Sweeney

Re:Here's a fundamental architecture question for you.
« Reply #12 on: September 22, 2007, 07:25:54 AM »
Montauk Downs - It is played by all types of golfers. Many internationals living in New York will make the trip out to play. It is cheap, so it can be played by all types. Nobody is going to say it was too expensive or not worth it aka Pebble. While it is not on the ocean, it is in a wonderful setting. It is challenging for the better player but playable for the everyday player who probably will not like Bethpage Black for being too hard. I have played with a number of women there and they all liked the course.

Even the hard core GCA afficionado can't call it a typical Rees or RTJ due to the setting. Other than pace of play on weekends in the summer, nobody has a bad word about Montauk Downs.
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Ray Richard

Re:Here's a fundamental architecture question for you.
« Reply #13 on: September 22, 2007, 07:39:43 AM »
I'd say Pebble Beach. I played it a few years back with a great caddie and it was outstanding. Sure it was expensive but it was a once in a lifetime experience. Pebble was full of all types of golfers that day, we played in front of a group of scratch players who hit it long and straight and the group in front on us featured a greybeard who took a mighty swing on the first tee and whifffed twice.Everybody on the course was enjoying themselves because they were playing a shrine.
  On 17 tee we saw a family out on a Sunday stroll who knew nothing about golf but respectfully kept quiet during our shots.  The speed police riding around in golf cars kept the play moving despite the varied golf skills.

  Somewhat off topic here but the clubhouse was really something. Everybody in there was staring at Carmel Bay and smiling. I spent plenty of time people watching everybody walk through the clubhouse;from  newly weds, to a NHL Hockey team to slick movie star types.

 
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Kyle Harris

Re:Here's a fundamental architecture question for you.
« Reply #14 on: September 22, 2007, 07:54:49 AM »
I've yet to hear anyone say that wouldn't want to return or be a member at Manufacturers' in the Philadelphia area. For me, at least, it's an ideal course that can be set up for a difficult championship or daily member play.
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wsmorrison

Re:Here's a fundamental architecture question for you.
« Reply #15 on: September 22, 2007, 07:59:26 AM »
Kyle,

You must be all in a panic awaiting the outcome of Penn State-Michigan.

Tom asked, "...what COURSE (or a very few) you think is the most loved, the most respected, the most admired by the most golfers of all types."

What did they teach you at Penn State other than you'll probably end up working for a University of Pennsylvania grad?  The question isn't about you.  Do you really think that Manufacturers is the most loved, respected and admired course by the most golfers?  Come on boy, get with the program and stay away from inhaling too many ag chemicals  ;)
« Last Edit: September 22, 2007, 08:00:36 AM by Wayne Morrison »
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Brian Phillips

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Re:Here's a fundamental architecture question for you.
« Reply #16 on: September 22, 2007, 08:22:51 AM »
I would have to say The Old Course but also Pebble Beach.

Pebble was the only course my broker in Portugal could mention when he was first trying to soften me up with some sales talk when he realised I was a GCA.
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Bunkers, if they be good bunkers, and bunkers of strong character, refuse to be disregarded, and insist on asserting themselves; they do not mind being avoided, but they decline to be ignored - John Low Concerning Golf

Tim Liddy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Here's a fundamental architecture question for you.
« Reply #17 on: September 22, 2007, 08:23:24 AM »
Cypress Point.  Fantastic (best) combination of great site and great architect. Screw the "all types of golfers". It has the beauty and the brains.
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Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +1/-1
Re:Here's a fundamental architecture question for you.
« Reply #18 on: September 22, 2007, 08:36:45 AM »
That's three separate questions, isn't it?

The most loved would have to be based on personal experience, so you'd have to go with a public course.  For Americans that's Pebble Beach; for the Brits it's probably St. Andrews, although not everyone loves it.

Most respected must have something to do with hosting tournaments.  That could still be Pebble Beach or St. Andrews, but it could also be Oakmont or Shinnecock or Augusta National.

Most admired would have to do with what people think about ideal architecture.  I'd go with Cypress Point there.
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Kyle Harris

Re:Here's a fundamental architecture question for you.
« Reply #19 on: September 22, 2007, 09:13:44 AM »
Quote from: Wayne Morrison on September 22, 2007, 07:59:26 AM
Kyle,

You must be all in a panic awaiting the outcome of Penn State-Michigan.

Tom asked, "...what COURSE (or a very few) you think is the most loved, the most respected, the most admired by the most golfers of all types."

What did they teach you at Penn State other than you'll probably end up working for a University of Pennsylvania grad?  The question isn't about you.  Do you really think that Manufacturers is the most loved, respected and admired course by the most golfers?  Come on boy, get with the program and stay away from inhaling too many ag chemicals  ;)

I've yet to see a course listed apart from mine that hasn't had its share of derision and criticism. Maybe you all need to take off the Top 10 blinders and realize the most loved course is probably some rinky-dink muni in Podunk, Iowa.

I think if most golfers got to PLAY Mannies (which is eminently more possible than ANY of the golf courses listed... Pebble? Cypress? PLEASE, I'd venture that less than 5% of all golfers will ever sniff the air on these courses, let alone play them so how is that even a consideration? How can MOST golfers LOVE something they'll never see?) it would be on this list.

Furthermore, my first sentence references the opinions of other golfers... not my own. Everybody loves Mannies for one reason or the other. Everybody would go back given the chance.
« Last Edit: September 22, 2007, 09:15:06 AM by Kyle Harris »
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wsmorrison

Re:Here's a fundamental architecture question for you.
« Reply #20 on: September 22, 2007, 09:29:16 AM »
Not because of exclusivity, but I doubt .1% of golfers will see Manufacturers or most Flynn courses.  Alas, but true.  That doesn't mean the courses do not merit admiration, they just won't qualify for the most anything except Shinnecock and a good portion of Merion.
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D_Malley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Here's a fundamental architecture question for you.
« Reply #21 on: September 22, 2007, 12:08:32 PM »
you would have to put Paxon Hollow near the top of phila area courses.  the only problem being that it is played by so many people that it tends to get over crowded at times.  Classic look and feel yet at a yardage of 6000 makes it very playable for many people.
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Mark_F

Re:Here's a fundamental architecture question for you.
« Reply #22 on: September 22, 2007, 06:53:53 PM »
Quote from: Tom_Doak on September 22, 2007, 08:36:45 AM
The most loved would have to be based on personal experience, so you'd have to go with a public course.  For Americans that's Pebble Beach; for the Brits it's probably St. Andrews, although not everyone loves it.

Most respected must have something to do with hosting tournaments.  That could still be Pebble Beach or St. Andrews, but it could also be Oakmont or Shinnecock or Augusta National.

Most admired would have to do with what people think about ideal architecture.  I'd go with Cypress Point there.

I would have thought Royal Melbourne perfectly fulfilled all those three criteria.
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Mark Pearce

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Re:Here's a fundamental architecture question for you.
« Reply #23 on: September 23, 2007, 02:52:01 AM »
This is going to change depending on which country's golfers you are surveying.  In the UK I'd guess TOC, ANGC and then, perhaps, Wentworth?

The answer will, in great part, depend on the exposure a course gets and that in turn, will depend on professional tournaments being played there.  I struggle to believe that your average Joe golfer is going to be aware of, let alone hold close to his heart, anywhere that doesn't host professional tournaments.
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In June I will be riding the first three stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity.  630km (394 miles) in three days, with 7800m (25,600 feet) of climbing for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

wsmorrison

Re:Here's a fundamental architecture question for you.
« Reply #24 on: September 23, 2007, 09:04:20 AM »
OK, Kyle.  I'm here to pile it on  ;)  Penn State lost to Michigan for the 9th straight time.  JOE MUST GO  OK, so Penn had 8 turnovers and lost to Villanova.  But come on....9 games in row?  Pathetic.  JOE MUST GO!

And to top it off, I have it on sound authority that the Genesis concert in Philadelphia sucked!  I wouldn't know first hand because in my mind that's all they ever did and I would never go ;D

« Last Edit: September 23, 2007, 09:05:01 AM by Wayne Morrison »
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