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John Kavanaugh

Was George Crump an Architect?
« on: September 21, 2007, 10:07:31 AM »
I say no.

John Kavanaugh

Re:Was George Crump an Architect?
« Reply #1 on: September 21, 2007, 10:12:10 AM »
Wikipedia says he was.. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Arthur_Crump

George Arthur Crump (1871—1918) was a golf course architect primarily known for designing and building Pine Valley Golf Club.
Crump was born in Philadelphia in 1871, but spent most of his formative years in Camden and Merchantville. He attended local primary and secondary schools and did not attend college. George married Isabelle Henry in 1898; at that time, he listed his profession as the 'Hotel Business'. With the hotel in capable hands, George was free to pursue golf and within a few years, he was a fanatic, eventually holding memberships at Philadelphia Country Club, St. David's, Torresdale, Huntingdon Valley Country Club and Atlantic City Country Club.
In 1910 Crump and his friend Joseph Baker embarked on a European trip in order to play and study the premier golf courses of Britain and the Continent. Their itinerary included rounds at St. Andrews, Prestwick, Turnberry, Hoylake, Sandwich, Deal, Princes, Sunningdale, Walton Heath as well as golf courses in France, Switzerland, Austria and Italy.
During the construction of the Pine Valley Golf Course, marshlands had to be drained and approximately 22,000 tree stumps had to be pulled out with special steam-winches and horse-drawn cables. This was all done at a time when many golf courses were still built with minimal earth moving, and the course was called "Crump's Folly" by some.
Crump committed suicide on the morning of the January 24, 1918 at his home in Merchantville. The coroners report listed the cause of death as a gun shot wound to the head. At the time of his death four holes - #12, #13, #14, #15 - were incomplete. Since Crump's death alterations have been made by several other leading golf course designers. The club also has a ten hole short course designed by Tom Fazio.
The Crump Cup, established in 1922 was named after Crump and is played to this day at Pine Valley Golf Club.
« Last Edit: September 21, 2007, 10:13:31 AM by John Kavanaugh »

Mike Sweeney

Re:Was George Crump an Architect?
« Reply #2 on: September 21, 2007, 10:12:33 AM »
Why do you say no?

PS. Two topics in one day, once again breaking your own rules.
« Last Edit: September 21, 2007, 10:12:44 AM by Mike Sweeney »

John Kavanaugh

Re:Was George Crump an Architect?
« Reply #3 on: September 21, 2007, 10:17:32 AM »
Why do you say no?

PS. Two topics in one day, once again breaking your own rules.

I see him more as an owner who loves golf...A Steve Wynn so to speak.

Cabell Ackerly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Was George Crump an Architect?
« Reply #4 on: September 21, 2007, 10:19:19 AM »
of course he's not an architect...the guy didn't even go to college


JSlonis

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Was George Crump an Architect?
« Reply #5 on: September 21, 2007, 10:31:36 AM »
**Was George Crump an architect?**

Let's ee...

Main Entry: ar·chi·tect
Pronunciation: 'är-k&-"tekt
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle French architecte, from Latin architectus, from Greek architektOn master builder, from archi- + tektOn builder, carpenter -- more at TECHNICAL
1 : a person who designs buildings and advises in their construction
2 : a person who designs and guides a plan or undertaking

I would say that given the formal definition of #2, George Crump was most certainly an architect.  For those of you that say NO, why not?  

Was Old Tom Morris an architect, or Hugh Wilson, or William Fownes for that matter?  It's quite obvious that formal training was not a prerequisite to creating some of the greatest golf architecture that we've ever seen.

John Kavanaugh

Re:Was George Crump an Architect?
« Reply #6 on: September 21, 2007, 10:39:31 AM »
#2 says designs and guides a plan...Did Crump really do both or is no more an interior designer than any man who picks out a new davenport and places it in his studio?

JSlonis

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Was George Crump an Architect?
« Reply #7 on: September 21, 2007, 10:54:58 AM »
#2 says designs and guides a plan...Did Crump really do both or is no more an interior designer than any man who picks out a new davenport and places it in his studio?

Did Crump not find the land for Pine Valley, design and implement his ideas for the golf course, golf club in general, and guide it to near completion?  He oviously had help along the way, but it doesn't detract from what he created. His vision for what he wanted the club to be, remains to this day.  I don't get your interior designer analogy.  Crump didn't just go out and recreate holes and place them upon the Pine Valley landscape, he created an original golf course.

John Kavanaugh

Re:Was George Crump an Architect?
« Reply #8 on: September 21, 2007, 11:04:05 AM »
#2 says designs and guides a plan...Did Crump really do both or is no more an interior designer than any man who picks out a new davenport and places it in his studio?

Did Crump not find the land for Pine Valley, design and implement his ideas for the golf course, golf club in general, and guide it to near completion?  He oviously had help along the way, but it doesn't detract from what he created. His vision for what he wanted the club to be, remains to this day.  I don't get your interior designer analogy.  Crump didn't just go out and recreate holes and place them upon the Pine Valley landscape, he created an original golf course.

JSlonis,

Do you really believe because I chose a piece of property, picked out a log cabin design I liked, tweaked it and placed it on the property at an elevation and location that worked out perfectly, oversaw the construction and made changes to fit my desires as needed, picked out stains, furniture, window treatements, etc. etc...That I am now a structural architect?

What are the differences between what I did and Crump?  I even spent time researching the project and visiting other projects much like GAC.

Powell Arms

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Was George Crump an Architect?
« Reply #9 on: September 21, 2007, 11:12:10 AM »
I would say that Crump was both an architect and a developer.  As an architect, he oversaw the design, many times through "subs" such as AWT, Thomas, et al.  As a developer, he found and acquired the land, and directed the financing and design.  Quite an impressive undertaking.
PowellArms@gmail.com
@PWArms

JSlonis

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Was George Crump an Architect?
« Reply #10 on: September 21, 2007, 11:25:19 AM »
#2 says designs and guides a plan...Did Crump really do both or is no more an interior designer than any man who picks out a new davenport and places it in his studio?

Did Crump not find the land for Pine Valley, design and implement his ideas for the golf course, golf club in general, and guide it to near completion?  He oviously had help along the way, but it doesn't detract from what he created. His vision for what he wanted the club to be, remains to this day.  I don't get your interior designer analogy.  Crump didn't just go out and recreate holes and place them upon the Pine Valley landscape, he created an original golf course.

JSlonis,

Do you really believe because I chose a piece of property, picked out a log cabin design I liked, tweaked it and placed it on the property at an elevation and location that worked out perfectly, oversaw the construction and made changes to fit my desires as needed, picked out stains, furniture, window treatements, etc. etc...That I am now a structural architect?

What are the differences between what I did and Crump?  I even spent time researching the project and visiting other projects much like GAC.


The differences are many.  Just because you can pick out a home and decorate it doesn't make you an architect.  Are you saying that Crump picked a piece of property and just decorated it with a golf course?

I really don't see how your example relates to Crump and Pine Valley.  Based on your view, there really isn't anyone who designs a golf course that you would call an architect.  

Macdonald and Raynor flat out "borrowed" holes and hole concepts that they had seen abroad and incorporated them into golf courses in America, were they architects?  I would say Crump was more of an architect in the original sense.
« Last Edit: September 21, 2007, 11:27:54 AM by JSlonis »

John Kavanaugh

Re:Was George Crump an Architect?
« Reply #11 on: September 21, 2007, 11:27:01 AM »
What did Crump do at Pine Valley that Wynn did not do at Shadow Creek?

Powell Arms

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Was George Crump an Architect?
« Reply #12 on: September 21, 2007, 11:29:00 AM »
What did Crump do at Pine Valley that Wynn did not do at Shadow Creek?

live there and participate in an interactive design process with mock-ups
PowellArms@gmail.com
@PWArms

Mike Sweeney

Re:Was George Crump an Architect?
« Reply #13 on: September 21, 2007, 11:29:47 AM »
What did Crump do at Pine Valley that Wynn did not do at Shadow Creek?

1. Lived there at the course during the building.

2. Had a priest for his consultant.

3. Sold memberships.

I do believe that Steve Wynn is legally blind by the way. You may want to try a different owner.

John Kavanaugh

Re:Was George Crump an Architect?
« Reply #14 on: September 21, 2007, 11:31:07 AM »
I do not believe you guys are aware of the vital role Wynn and his blindness played in the design of Shadow Creek.  If anyone is the father of modern framing it is Wynn.

Craig Van Egmond

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Was George Crump an Architect?
« Reply #15 on: September 21, 2007, 11:33:20 AM »

Mike,

       You should read the book about the building of Shadow Creek.. Steve Wynn's eyesight (or lack of it) played a huge role in the design.


JSlonis

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Was George Crump an Architect?
« Reply #16 on: September 21, 2007, 11:33:38 AM »
What did Crump do at Pine Valley that Wynn did not do at Shadow Creek?

I give up.... :P

Did Wynn sit out in the desert and develop a routing, did he personally design the majority of the golf course?

How about create some of the greatest greensites in the world?

Based on your view you could say this about any golf course architect.  Do you think Doak is an architect?

How about giving an answer as to why you say no, instead of just making odd analogies.
« Last Edit: September 21, 2007, 11:36:16 AM by JSlonis »

Tommy_Naccarato

Re:Was George Crump an Architect?
« Reply #17 on: September 21, 2007, 11:34:06 AM »
ar·chi·tect      /ˈɑrkɪˌtɛkt/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[ahr-ki-tekt] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun
1.   a person who engages in the profession of architecture.
2.   a person professionally engaged in the design of certain large constructions other than buildings and the like: landscape architect; naval architect.
3.   the deviser, maker, or creator of anything: the architects of the Constitution of the United States.
–verb (used with object)
4.   to plan, organize, or structure as an architect: The house is well architected.


John,
Your statements sound exactly like someone that has never been to Pine Valley.

I consider the place and the architecture no different then Shangri La. While some have called the style of architecture penal, I think it's more on the side of brilliant in terms of challenge.

To me, the person that created that, the saw it in that land had the greatest instincts of what a golf architect should or would be all about. Even if he wasn't fortunate enough to see it to it's fruition.

Call it one of the more tragic stories in Golf. Only it has a happy ending--the end result.

Mike Sweeney

Re:Was George Crump an Architect?
« Reply #18 on: September 21, 2007, 11:34:37 AM »
I do not believe you guys are aware of the vital role Wynn and his blindness played in the design of Shadow Creek.  If anyone is the father of modern framing it is Wynn.

I will grant you that, and I apologize to Steve Wynn. I have never said that he was NOT an architect, only that Crump was.
« Last Edit: September 21, 2007, 11:35:15 AM by Mike Sweeney »

John Kavanaugh

Re:Was George Crump an Architect?
« Reply #19 on: September 21, 2007, 11:42:19 AM »
Tommy,

I don't think the quality of a course determines if an orchestrator is an architect.

Tommy_Naccarato

Re:Was George Crump an Architect?
« Reply #20 on: September 21, 2007, 11:42:51 AM »
Steve Wynn was not and is not a golf architect. He's a masterful developer who specified in great detail what he wanted to his designer.

His name and reputation for the extreme alone is what built Shadow Creek. I don't think you could ever consider him in the same category of Sportsman as George Crump, who for the most part was a competitive golfer.

Crump had never attempted to develop anything before Pine Valley. Wynn has made his living doing exactly that. Wynn hires architects to do the work for him. George Crump probably died from  trying to do all of it--with some minimal consultation.

Tommy_Naccarato

Re:Was George Crump an Architect?
« Reply #21 on: September 21, 2007, 11:43:56 AM »
Tommy,

I don't think the quality of a course determines if an orchestrator is an architect.

John, I think this last statement alone is ludicrous.

JSlonis

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Was George Crump an Architect?
« Reply #22 on: September 21, 2007, 11:46:38 AM »
John,

Care to expand on why you wouldn't consider Crump an architect?

I'll ask again...is there anyone who designs golf courses that you would call an architect?

John Kavanaugh

Re:Was George Crump an Architect?
« Reply #23 on: September 21, 2007, 11:49:36 AM »
I think anyone who has been hired at arms length to design and build a golf course is a golf course architect...no matter how poor a job they did.
« Last Edit: September 21, 2007, 11:50:43 AM by John Kavanaugh »

David Stamm

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Was George Crump an Architect?
« Reply #24 on: September 21, 2007, 11:57:45 AM »
JK, I don't think Wynn ever went out to the property and hit experimental golf shots to his holes to see if he liked the way it played and changed them as he saw fit. I don't think Wynn lived on the property day in and day out overseeing the construction and performing the work himself in many cases. I don't think Wynn ever told Fazio, like Crump told Colt, that's a good idea but I'm doing it this way, in some cases. He conceptulized it, he routed it (with some assistance from Colt), he cleared trees, he planted them, he tweaked greens, placed bunkers etc, etc, etc. If that doesn't constitute him being called a architect, I don't know what does.
"The object of golf architecture is to give an intelligent purpose to the striking of a golf ball."- Max Behr

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