[Paul Sinclair]

I just played the Bandon courses last week. Wonderful experience. Don't miss it if you get a chance.

I'm curious as to how much shaping was involved to provide all the great contours in the fairways at the Pacific Dunes and Bandon Dunes courses. The heaves and rolls in those fairways are an absolute blast to look at and play. With the firm fairways and moguls all around, it is just plain old golf adventure watching your ball roll hither and yon until it decides where to stop. How much shaper influence was involved in that contouring -- or did they just remove the gorse and there it was?

Also, I noticed that the 4th course to be built there - Old MacDonald - is taking shape. There are a series of flags marking what I assume will be the playing corridors. Is that routing pretty well finalized or are C&C still tinkering with it? There was a big fire around the new course that seemed to have burned out a lot of the gorse. Just a happy coincidence I'm sure.

[Matt MacIver]

Paul - welcome, and glad you got to see Bandon.  Wonderful place.  

I'm sure the question of natural-v-built fairways has been addressed before, try the search engine as I think Tom D. himself has provided information (I think the answer is "mostly found, a few shaped") but I'm sure there's a hole-by-hole analysis here somewhere.  

Maybe someone who knows better will chime in.  

[Kirk Gill]

Is that routing pretty well finalized or are C&C still tinkering with it?

I am a known novice, but I don't believe that C&C have anything to do with the new course at Bandon. The new course is Tom Doak, aided by a host of Macdonald-o-philes, no?

[Tom Huckaby]

Is that routing pretty well finalized or are C&C still tinkering with it?

I am a known novice, but I don't believe that C&C have anything to do with the new course at Bandon. The new course is Tom Doak, aided by a host of Macdonald-o-philes, no?

That would be correct.  Tom Doak is gonna see that post and cringe....

 

[Paul Sinclair]

Sorry about the mistaken reference in my original post as to Coore and Crenshaw being architects on the new course at Bandon. One of the caddies in our group mentioned that C&C was doing that course. I should know better than to listen to a looper. Come to think of it, he misread most of my putts too.

[Jim Adkisson]

There was a big fire around the new course that seemed to have burned out a lot of the gorse. Just a happy coincidence I'm sure.

Paul...Greetings from one who reads more than he posts on this site...I would suspect that they are doing controlled burns of the gorse to open up areas on OM...they have used this tactic on BD and PD in the past.

Can't wait for December 9th to take the drive south!

[Michael Dugger]

Jim,

I thought I read it on here that there was a bit of a fire (again) that was not exactly controlled oh about a month or two ago.

I think Tom even chimed in about it; pretty sure it found its' way to portions of the Old Mac. property.

[Jim Adkisson]

Mike...I missed that one...gotta quit working when I'm in the office!...How fortuitous to burn off some of that nasty weed with the fabulous yellow blooms!...

Back to Paul's original topic...I sure feel that the BD fairways had some, repeat some, movement of sand in order to make them as flowing as they are...PD's rumpled wave fairways seem like they used rakes and a shovel or two very sparingly in the movement of dirt.

[Tom_Doak]

Paul:

If I'd ever get my book finished about Pacific Dunes, you wouldn't have to ask this question, but since it's not done yet ...

Probably 90% of the fairway contours at Pacific Dunes are natural, or less than that if you refuse to count the contours on three fairways which we had to cap with sand because they were blown down to sandstone.

The most completely natural fairways are holes 2, 3, 5, 7, 8, 12 & 13 (which had to be capped), and 16.  We had to do a bit more work on the others, but only in confined spots, not the whole fairway.

And yes, we're going to start on the fourth course after January 1st; and no, we didn't start the fire, it just happened and luckily (because we had been clearing the edge of the third hole up over the dune) it didn't go down the dune all the way to the resort.

P.S.  The fact that nobody else here could really answer your question is a testament to the quality of the work that my crew did out there.  Other threads are busy arguing about whether "natural" architecture is as good as "man made" architecture but the best occurs when you can't tell the difference.

[James Bennett]

Other threads are busy arguing about whether "natural" architecture is as good as "man made" architecture but the best occurs when you can't tell the difference.

George Thomas and Alistair Mackenzie were other experts at the 'man-made' natural architecture.  They both wrote about it to, with the good Doctor recalling with humour the Committeemen who were certain an aspect of the course was natural when that had actually been present at the pre-construction work.

James B

[TEPaul]

Paul Sinclair asked;

"I'm curious as to how much shaping was involved to provide all the great contours in the fairways at the Pacific Dunes and Bandon Dunes courses."

Very early on it was explained to me that many of the fairway contours of Bandon Dunes were made, and I believe that is not very hard to tell.

On the other hand, I was lead to believe that the architect of Pacific Dunes and those who worked with him out there were never going to let on about what was made and what was natural fairway-wise simply because that mystery is so inscrutable because it is so hard to tell.

I thought that mystery was going to be what was called in the movie "The Sting" the everlasting attempt to "hold the con." You know what all those old dead guy ultra naturalist architects always said about "hiding the hand of man".

But what the hell do I know because here is the architect of Pacific Dunes not more than a post above this one letting the entire cat outta da bageroo.

Damn you, Mr Big Shot architect, Tom Doak, you just wrecked the con, you just let all the mystery out of the fairways of Pac Dunes.  

[Tom_Doak]

Tom:

One of the reasons my book on Pacific Dunes has not yet happened is that Mr. Keiser was not too enthusiastic about my revealing what is natural and what isn't at Pacific Dunes.  He likes to perpetuate the mystery and would prefer that I "hold the con" forever.  He absolutely loved the day we took Ron Whitten around the course and quizzed him on every hole about what we'd done or hadn't done and he kept guessing wrong.

However, by the same token, there are a lot of golf course architects who can't believe as much of it is natural as it is, and it would help them a lot to know the truth.

[TEPaul]

"However, by the same token, there are a lot of golf course architects who can't believe as much of it is natural as it is, and it would help them a lot to know the truth."

Of course it would, Tom. That's good of you in that sense. Obviously I'm just kidding with what I said above.

However, and particularly for the guys not in the business, I think you need to not only explain what is natural on some of those fairways but also how difficult it can be to use it in the way you want to in a routing sense.

Sometimes, too many people just tend to look at golf holes as individual entities in a vacuum where one can use anything about them just as they'd like to.

This, of course, totally overlooks the whole question of routing as a total connection along with things like hole to hole diversity, variety, balance etc, etc.

Don't you just hate it when you find some natural features you want to use in a particular way and for whatever reason they just aren't fitting into the jigsaw puzzle the way you'd like them to?

[Tom_Doak]

"Don't you just hate it when you find some natural features you want to use in a particular way and for whatever reason they just aren't fitting into the jigsaw puzzle the way you'd like them to?"

Yes, of course that's hard.  Lately the problem has been having too many choices of projects to pursue.  The last three days I've looked at three sites that are about 3,000 acres each to try and figure out which would make the best site for a golf course, which in truth would take MONTHS to sort out for just the reason you mention.  Trying to figure it out in a day is ridiculous, but I'm glad to have the chance, anyway.

[TEPaul]

"Lately the problem has been having too many choices of projects to pursue.  The last three days I've looked at three sites that are about 3,000 acres each to try and figure out which would make the best site for a golf course, which in truth would take MONTHS to sort out for just the reason you mention.  Trying to figure it out in a day is ridiculous, but I'm glad to have the chance, anyway."

Obviously you've reached that heretofore hoped for---but thereinafter enigmatic state of business where you need to decide whether to stay in your basic form of annual output or else figure out some way of believably creating a bunch of "mini-mes".

[Paul Sinclair]

Tom Doak,

Thanks very much for your information on the fairway contouring at Pacific Dunes. It is great to have this GCA discussion group to get questions like this answered from THE definitive source.

Are the routing flags on the Old MacDonald course the final routing or are you still tinkering?

I grew up in Michigan and spent summers at Crystal Lake. My dad dragged me along to Crystal Downs with him many times to walk along as he played there. This was back in the 60's-70's before the course was rediscovered and it was a little easier to get on. I have lived in Virginia the past 25 years or so and have some great memories but haven't been back to the Crystal Lake area for about 20 years now. I'm starting to think strongly about a trip back with some golf buddies. We've traveled to Scotland, Ireland, England, Oregon, and many other places here in the states to visit and play some great golf courses. It is about time we made our way to Michigan.

[George Pazin]

It is great to have this GCA discussion group to get questions like this answered from THE definitive source.

Paul, I realize you're just a newbie, but everyone on here knows THE definitive source is Matt Ward. Just ask him.

 

[Bill_McBride]

Tom Doak,

Thanks very much for your information on the fairway contouring at Pacific Dunes. It is great to have this GCA discussion group to get questions like this answered from THE definitive source.

Are the routing flags on the Old MacDonald course the final routing or are you still tinkering?

I grew up in Michigan and spent summers at Crystal Lake. My dad dragged me along to Crystal Downs with him many times to walk along as he played there. This was back in the 60's-70's before the course was rediscovered and it was a little easier to get on. I have lived in Virginia the past 25 years or so and have some great memories but haven't been back to the Crystal Lake area for about 20 years now. I'm starting to think strongly about a trip back with some golf buddies. We've traveled to Scotland, Ireland, England, Oregon, and many other places here in the states to visit and play some great golf courses. It is about time we made our way to Michigan.

Paul, I made my first trip to Michigan in July and it was absolutely super - I'd love to spend more time in the Traverse City area.  We played Crystal Downs, Kingsley Club, Forest Dunes and Arcadian Bluffs - and I'd rank them in that order if required to do so.  I could happily play Crystal Downs every day the rest of my life, most entertaining greens I've played on in some time.

[Bill_McBride]

The fact that nobody else here could really answer your question is a testament to the quality of the work that my crew did out there.  Other threads are busy arguing about whether "natural" architecture is as good as "man made" architecture but the best occurs when you can't tell the difference.

That's what I said on the other thread.  That's the absolute essence of golf architecture, not being able to tell what's manmade and what's natural.

[Forrest Richardson]

Tom D., when you say, "the best [design] occurs when you can't tell the difference...[between man-made and natural", why is that so? And, do you think it is a 'rule' that should always be followed?

[Sean_A]

Tom D., when you say, "the best [design] occurs when you can't tell the difference...[between man-made and natural", why is that so? And, do you think it is a 'rule' that should always be followed?

Forrest

I wuz gonna ask the same question.  When you read the quote it sounds perfectly reasonable, but when you give it some thought, questions arise.  There are loads of examples of "best" architecture that are obviously man made.  

Ciao

[JC Jones]

Tom D., when you say, "the best [design] occurs when you can't tell the difference...[between man-made and natural", why is that so? And, do you think it is a 'rule' that should always be followed?

Forrest

I wuz gonna ask the same question.  When you read the quote it sounds perfectly reasonable, but when you give it some thought, questions arise.  There are loads of examples of "best" architecture that are obviously man made.  

Ciao

To quote the good Dr.:

"A first class architect attempts to give the impression that everything has been done by nature and nothing by himself, whereas a contractor tries to make as big a splash as possible and impress committees with the amount of labour and material he has put into the job"

Why, you ask?  I refer to the Dr. once again:

"I repeat: the value of a golf course is measured by the mental labour put into it, and not by the manual labour and materials."

There has been much talk on this board recently about the built v natural, more v less architecture.

In my very novice opinion, the more natural looking and naturally made the golf course, the more "architecture" and less "contracting/building."  Therefore, the goal is to use as much as is naturally on the site and whatever is built, to make it look as though it is/was naturally part of the site.

[Tom_Doak]

Forrest:

Just a personal preference on my part.  It's been that way ever since I saw Cypress Point at age 15.  Of course, I got interested in architecture from seeing Pete Dye's bulkheaded hazards at Harbour Town, and they obviously weren't natural.

[Forrest Richardson]

Harbor Town was on my mind when asking the question.

One of my opinions is that a lot of golf architecture — especially much of it in the 1960s and 70s — was lame attempts to mimmick nature. Where it may well have been better to see designers create courses that were simply fun and creative. Instead, many of these courses involved shaping with lame attempts to duplicate natural terrain, when this was probably not a likely outcome...even if a young Tom D. had been on the job!

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