[Craig Sweet]

Given the variables from hole to hole, do you expect there might be variables from course to course within a five mile radius?

At modern day "height of cut" on most courses what do you think the margin for error might be? Do you think lower HOC and faster green speeds equal less margin for error?

What would you have done differently then your super?

[Don_Mahaffey]

Also, green perimeters stress more because they get clean up passes every day, meaning machines run over the turf twice as much as the green middle.  Add in stress if in a cart path walk up area, slight rises among green contouring, etc. and its typical for the edges to have more trouble than the middle.

I know I sound like a turf know it all jerk...but no one I know who has had a job growing bent in the south for more than one season ever does clean ups every day. At the most every other day and less often then that when the the heat stress is on full bore.

[John Kavanaugh]

Given the variables from hole to hole, do you expect there might be variables from course to course within a five mile radius?

At modern day "height of cut" on most courses what do you think the margin for error might be? Do you think lower HOC and faster green speeds equal less margin for error?

What would you have done differently then your super?

I thought 80th percentile took into account margin for error.  The only thing I would do differently than any super at any of the courses I play is less.  I think more is overrated.

[kurt bowman]

Sub-Air was invented by Marsh Benson who at the time was the GCS at ANGC. The first permanent unit was installed in the 13th green at ANGC in the summer of 1994. It works without a doubt providing that the green is USGA, and is built properly. While wilt-watching greens during my internship there I could speed by #13 after the sub-air was installed on my way to the next green. However it is not a cure-all. Typically GCS's in the southeast with bentgrass greens are raising the cutting height, using smooth rollers, fans, and praying alot that October comes soon. I can guess that the GCS at East Lake was under intense pressure to keep the greens speeds at 10 plus, in preparation for the Tour Championship while the other supers were raising their height of cut,he may have had to lower his.

I can't believe the PGA tour would schedule it's flagship event in Atlanta on bentgrass greens in September. As we all saw, it was a recipe for disaster.

[John Gosselin]

"The superintendent for East Lake blamed the turf loss on the high heat."

"Sub Air is designed to do two things from what I can decipher. Remove moisture and reduce soil temperature. At East Lake, it appears it did neither"

John, Sub Air is just another tool to help provide better growing environment for the turf. It is not a guarantee against turf loss. To jump to a conclusion that it did not do what it was supposed to do is a stretch.

My question to the super would be "if you did not have Sub Air to help you combat the heat wave on your greens, how much worse do you think the damage would have been?

For all we know Sub Air may have saved the tournament.

Again, Sub Air is just one of many tools at your disposal to try and keep greens playable and healthy.

[Anthony_Nysse]

Steve,
Thank you.....

People have no idea what the SE supts put up with growing bentgrass in the SE in August and Sept......like groweing banana trees in maine in the winter.....

Mike,
  If this is the case, did you have any say as to the grassing of the greens at Longshadow or was that what the owner wanted. For those who don't know, Longshadow has L-93.

Tony Nysse
Sr. Asst. Supt.
Long Cove Club
HHI, SC

[ward peyronnin]

Gents

Item in golfweekly (pg 34)says Coghill greens are being renovated as we speak with subair systems "to suck out moisture. It is expected the greens will be firmer and faster...in 2009". I don't recall hearing them on at my course this year.

Ward

[Chris Moore]

I am no expert on anything, but sometimes human engineering simply fails.  Sub Air is to excessive heat as the Army Corps of Engineers' levees are to Hurricane Katrina.  

[PGertner]

Time Out!!!!

Reading the posts from non-Supers has made me laugh....thank you all!!!  You guys please stick to the law, selling insurance, stocks and bonds and fixing me when I am sick.  Deal??

You guys have no idea just how difficult our business is.  EL has bentgrass greens....a plant that should not exist in Atlanta ever, because of its severe limitations in that climate!!  Please consider the plant stress those greens experience this and almost every year because of the following....
-daily traffic...golfers, caddies and equipment.
-daily mowing, probably double mowing most days.
-incredibly hot and dry summer with high humidity, combined with the city environment of EL.  
-rolling
-frequent topdressing for smoothness.
-a pandora's box of pests waiting to feast.
-the pressure of a PGA tourney combined with desired 11'+ speeds for a Sept date.
-a demanding membership
-possible grooming, vertical mowing, brushing etc for speed

We have many tools at our disposal to cajole bents to survive such conditions.  The Sub-Aire is only one such tool that helps  to move air into or out of the soil profile.  (Superheated, undesirable air this year)  You cannot point to the Sub-Aire system as a success or failure here, especially after the intensity of this summer.  Too many factors come in to play, despite the desire to blame something or somebody.  And yes, I understand other bentgrass golf courses in Atlanta survived much better this year.  

Despite our ability to provide near perfect playing conditions most of the time, please remember that we play golf on living turfgrass....and it is performing even though traffic, environmental stresses and maintenance duties constantly harass plants.  

PS....Please don't complain when we aerate...we don't like it either.    

Patrick Gertner
Potowomut GC
East Greenwich, RI

[John_Cullum]

I cannot count how many different golf courses I have played in the Metro Atlanta area. The only courses that come to mind without bent greens are the munis

[Anthony_Nysse]

Patrick,
  Well put. So many people don't know what it takes and how quickly grass can take a turn for the worse. At least there are many on the site that want to know more and are really interested in knowing the demands of our field. Many are genuinely interested.

Tony Nysse
Sr. Asst. Supt.
Long Cove Club
HHI, SC

[John_Cullum]

Anthony

I believe this area is one where 100% of the people on this site have a sincere interest in understaanding better.

Most of the superintendent replies to these threads so far can be summarized in two words-Shit Happens.

As Patrick alludes to above, most of the non-superintendents on this site are educated professional people. Shit Happens is not an accepatable answer for us.

The supers responses to the initial inquiry on this thread do not explain what sub air is supposed to be capable of handling. The conditions at East Lake in August were extreme, but only by a small percentage. If sub Air can't overcome a sustained increase in outside temps of a few degrees for two weeks, is it worth the expense? So far I am concluding the answer is no. I remain willing to listen to an informed explanation of why it is worth the expense

[Mike_Young]

Anthony

I believe this area is one where 100% of the people on this site have a sincere interest in understaanding better.

Most of the superintendent replies to these threads so far can be summarized in two words-Shit Happens.

As Patrick alludes to above, most of the non-superintendents on this site are educated professional people. Shit Happens is not an accepatable answer for us.

The supers responses to the initial inquiry on this thread do not explain what sub air is supposed to be capable of handling. The conditions at East Lake in August were extreme, but only by a small percentage. If sub Air can't overcome a sustained increase in outside temps of 3 to 5 degrees above average, is it worth the expense? So far I am concluding the answer is no. I remain willing to listen to an informed explanation of why it is worth the expense

John,
I think I understand where you are coming from and I also understand the Shit happens answer.  Let me take a stab.
The "concept" of Subair should work.  But there are a lot of variables when you start to discuss it with some of the guys that "invented " it.  Basically you have a system much like a vaccumcleaner and it either vaccums or pushes air thru a system of hoses....the condition of these pipes determine the force of that air thru the rootzone....many varaibles can change the conditions of those pipes including an everchanging rootzone.  IMHO it is not practical for most courses in the SE even though it  may work.  There is now an acceptable alternative to bent down here and IMHO the ultradwarfs will take over on most courses.
As for the "shit happens" answers.....I know a few professional people such as one orthopedic surgeon that plays with us and he will tell you "shit happens" in his field also.  
I think I understand the logic you are trying to use regarding the subair.....my answer would be in most cases it is not worth the expense...and fo rthe courses that could justify it...they wold not consider it expensive.  they also would not consider it the answer but more like part of the equation in solving the overall problem.....JMO

[John Gosselin]

Anthony

I believe this area is one where 100% of the people on this site have a sincere interest in understanding better.

Most of the superintendent replies to these threads so far can be summarized in two words-Shit Happens.

As Patrick alludes to above, most of the non-superintendents on this site are educated professional people. Shit Happens is not an acceptable answer for us.

The supers responses to the initial inquiry on this thread do not explain what sub air is supposed to be capable of handling. The conditions at East Lake in August were extreme, but only by a small percentage. If sub Air can't overcome a sustained increase in outside temps of a few degrees for two weeks, is it worth the expense? So far I am concluding the answer is no. I remain willing to listen to an informed explanation of why it is worth the expense

It has been my experience that educated professional people, like superintendents, don't jump to conclusions.

If a green is designed well, built well, and the right turf varieties are used Sub Air and fans should not be required.

I don't think you will get any supers to speculate what happened at East Lake. This is not an exact science and only the super at East Lake could intelligently discuss what the exact set of circumstances were that led to the thinning. Only he can answer if Sub Air worked or did not work in that case.

[John_Cullum]

It has been my experience that educated professional people, like superintendents, don't jump to conclusions.

If a green is designed well, built well, and the right turf varieties are used Sub Air and fans should not be required.

I don't think you will get any supers to speculate what happened at East Lake. This is not an exact science and only the super at East Lake could intelligently discuss what the exact set of circumstances were that led to the thinning. Only he can answer if Sub Air worked or did not work in that case.

My desire to not jump to a conclusion is why I started this thread. I think we have reached the same conclusion.

I agree we do not know the specifics at east lake, and frankly, it didn't look as bad as they made  it sound.

As far as Sub Air goes, I am coming to the further conclusion that it probably works fairly well for moisture removal, but the temperature control is beyond its capacity. It would be like trying to bake a turkey with a hair dryer

[Anthony_Nysse]

John,
  At the end all the day, all superintendents are at the mercy of Mother Nature. Take Merion prior to the 2005 US AM-Matt Shaffer and Co. did everything that they could to ensure the best possible playing conditions. If I remember correctly, Merion closed for over a week prior to the Am because of how difficult a summer the Philadelphia area was having. They were getting a lot of play leading up to the event and the combination of players and caddies walking on the greens and fairways, presents a lot of stress for an already stressed out plant. Mind you, there is more PSI in a footprint than a triplex greens mower. A lot of high end, huge budget courses lost grass than summer, some even lost jobs. No amount of fungicides, water, air movement, aerification, labor and effort can change the mind of Mother Nature. If memory serves me right, courses in the D.C. area really struggled with their bentgrass last summer also because of tremendous heat and humidity, resulting in loss of turf.
  In fact, for this year’s Fex Ex at Cog Hill, there was A LOT of visible white lines in the fairways-They had over 12 inches of rain for August and it went on to be the wettest on record.
  Keep this in mind-Sub Air is only a tool-it’s not a cure-all, it’s not the answer. It’s just a tool to help with the playing surface. It’s not going hurt a golf course if they use it, it will only help. To what extent you ask? That varies between each course and the opinion of the superintendent. Some people seem to love using the sub air, some think it’s a waste of money. I don’t know too many here in the south that are opposed to it though. Each golf course has its own set of problems, even if they are only bisected by an entrance road, like Long Cove is from Wexford Plantation. It’s never fair to a membership or superintendent to compare one course to the one up the street.
  I do know that East Lake has always had a different environment than other Atlanta courses. I know several on the maintenance staff that are looking forward to the new ultradwaft bermudagrass. (Mini Verde or Champion) and I’m sure that when the tour plays there next season, this will all be forgotten.

Tony Nysse
Sr. Asst. Supt.
Long Cove Club
HHI, SC

[Don_Mahaffey]

Most of the superintendent replies to these threads so far can be summarized in two words-Shit Happens.

As Patrick alludes to above, most of the non-superintendents on this site are educated professional people. Shit Happens is not an accepatable answer for us.

Why do some folks die from a certain disease and others survive...is it always explainable?
Does your financial advisor always nail the market…do any of them?
Your asking for answers that just can't come from here...go to East Lake...with no preconceived ideas about what happened...and buy the Super a cup of coffee and ask him.
To make a statement like you did above just drives supers away...we hear the locker room and grill room bullshit all the time...most of the professionals there haven't a clue.

[Kevin Crowe]

My name is Kevin Crowe and I am the  Senior Agronomist for SubAir Systems, LLC. After seeing all of the posts on this message board I felt compeled to reply not only to answer questions about SubAir, but to provide some insight to the issues that were faced at East Lake.

It seems as though there is a great deal of confusion and or misconceptions about SubAir, its purpose, it capabilities and its use. First let me say that the situation at East Lake Golf Club was not the result of any one factor, but a multitude of factors and that no single product and or cultural practice would have been able to offset. The golf course superintendent and agronomy staff at ELGC are a talented and hard working group that were put in a very difficult position. First, they were being asked to prepare a golf course in Atlanta, Georgia with Bentgrass greens for a major tournament in the summer months. As if that is not challenging enough, then mother nature added stress to an already difficult situation by providing stifling heat, high humidity and no rain. Any golf course in any part of the country under those conditions is going to suffer and need to make adjustments to their normal maintenance practices to ensure quality conditions. Unfortunately, East Lake was not able to make those adjustments because there were mere weeks away from hosting one of the most important PGA Tour events of the year. A single product, such as SubAir cannot overcome those difficult conditions. However, without the assistance of SubAir and the ability to exchange the noxious gasses in the soil and control the air/water ratios in the soil, who knows how much more difficult the situation would have been.

As far as SubAir and the purpose of the technology and the capability of the equipment are concerned, it is not a magical system that solves all of the problems that face the golf course superintendent. It is a tool that provides gas exchange in the soil profile, provides the ability to manage air water /ratios in the soil and provides some level of temperature moderation. Because it is a tool and not a magical cure, it is one part of the solution and not the cure all. We have our systems installed on more than 500 golf courses around the world, over 30 courses listed in the Top 100, and no less than 15 PGA Tour tournament venues. Our clients are the top courses in the world and will attest to the success of SubAir when used properly and for the right reasons.

 

In closing I would like to answer the question that started this discussion, Is SubAir worth the money? The answer is yes, SubAir is worth the money if you want to improve the quality and playability of your greens.

Feel free to contact me directly with questions or go to the web info request tab at our web site www.subairsystems.com

[Jamey Bryan]

Kevin, I'm sure you joined in here primarily to protect your commercial interests, but I hope you stick around and contribute in the future.  While the primary emphasis of the board is Architecture, I think there is a bond which cannot be broken in the design/conditioning and the resulting playability of a course.  Contributions from professionals (such as yourself) bring much to the discussion.

Welcome, thanks for your contribution, and I hope to see more in the future.

Jamey

[Kevin Crowe]

Jamey,

Thanks for the note, and I will stick around. I have been reading through the discussions on a lot of topics this morning and have found several intereting items. Thanks again and I look forward to livley discussions in the future.

[John_Cullum]

Most of the superintendent replies to these threads so far can be summarized in two words-Shit Happens.

As Patrick alludes to above, most of the non-superintendents on this site are educated professional people. Shit Happens is not an accepatable answer for us.

Why do some folks die from a certain disease and others survive...is it always explainable?
Does your financial advisor always nail the market…do any of them?
Your asking for answers that just can't come from here...go to East Lake...with no preconceived ideas about what happened...and buy the Super a cup of coffee and ask him.
To make a statement like you did above just drives supers away...we hear the locker room and grill room bullshit all the time...most of the professionals there haven't a clue.

Not having a clue is the reason for this thread. I know what I don't know. When I want to know more, I ask questions. Non answers don't satisfy me. I regret that you are offended, but I have yet to read any reply that would make me think sub air is worth the expense. You may want to keep in mind that the guys spouting the grill roombull shit are paying your salary

[John_Cullum]

Kevin

Thanks for your reply. I was going to post that it would be helpful to hear directly from someone at Sub Air.

What is the price range for an 18 hole system? That is a critical factor that I have scant information about.

Also, I am thinking Sub Air will only work with USGA spec greens or something of similar design and costs, correct?

[Craig Sweet]

John Cullum..."shit happens" is an answer. And anyone that has a job with variables that involve the weather, geology, and the built environment, is well aware that "shit happens", and that is sometimes the ONLY answer, regardless of how smart and how professional you are.

[John_Cullum]

Then you need to come up with a better line of bullshit for communicating such a lousy answer.

If that's the best you can come up with, I'll quote some Donald Trump for you

[Kevin Crowe]

Kevin

Thanks for your reply. I was going to post that it would be helpful to hear directly from someone at Sub Air.

What is the price range for an 18 hole system? That is a critical factor that I have scant information about.

Also, I am thinking Sub Air will only work with USGA spec greens or something of similar design and costs, correct?

John,

The cost of a SubAir permanent in-ground system can range between $250K - $330K for just the aeration equipment on 20 greens. We also have wireless communication and moitoring systems complete with wireless in ground moisture, temperature and salinity sensors that can add to the cost. As with any product we can add options or tailor our systems to any of the golf courses needs and that will obviously have an impact on the price.

As far as where the system performs, A USGA or California style greens design is where SubAir performs best. That being said, as long as there is a drainage system and a permeable soil, SubAir will have an impact.

I hope that this information is helpful to you.

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