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Gib_Papazian

Re:Why do members want to make their course harder ?
« Reply #25 on: September 17, 2007, 06:47:07 PM »
George,

Ah yes, I can just see Agnes Havershire (Pittsburgh society who did not have the sense to play at Fox Chapel) having a joyous time of it trying to hold her chip (5th shot) on either the 1st or 10th greens, running away and Stimping a 16 or whatever they keep it at to make sure that everybody knows their sperm count is higher than a horny mook in a Detroit whorehouse.

Please. I think you are reaching here just a tad, eh? I remember Genius Goodale coining the phrase "infinite putting" back when I was a regular on this site and could hit my ass with both hands as opposed to now.

Can you see Agnes? Close your eyes . . . . . glove on both hands, ancient putter, shaking from the Parkinsons . . . . . trying to coax in a three-footer on #12 for a nine because she hit her 5th Brassie one inch off line and had to chop her nine-iron sideways back into the fairway in the same way you would if confronted by a sod-faced wall at Carnoustie.

I call bullshit. Now, there are some courses where Agnes ought not play - and maybe Oakmont is one - but to suggest that is an appropriate challenge for her and Reginald (I just invented her a husband) as opposed to The Creek is evidence that management must have suspended drug testing at your place of business.  :)

If the members of Oakmont would put their egos aside and grasp the genius of their golf course from a design standpoint - WITHOUT CRAZY ROUGH AND RIDICULOUS GREENS - their lives would be drastically improved.

Yeah yeah, Henry Fownes and his version of Young Tom Morris had that whole "hard is good" philosophy, so maybe the membership thinks that they are being true to their founders by shooting 98 in the searing August heat with asshole caddies . . . . . .

But to quote Professor Dave at USC Cinema School: "We have sound in our movies now . . . . . . "
« Last Edit: September 17, 2007, 06:48:07 PM by Gib Papazian »

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Why do members want to make their course harder ?
« Reply #26 on: September 17, 2007, 07:08:31 PM »
To Clarify the issue, this isn't the product of architectural changes in terms of earth moving, it's the product of maintainance practices.

The other problem that I have with this trend is that it produces longer rounds.

In terms of individual ego, I don't necessarily agree with that.
I think it may be related to false pride or the "Red Badge of Courage" syndrome.

Steve Lapper

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Re:Why do members want to make their course harder ?
« Reply #27 on: September 17, 2007, 07:29:32 PM »
Gib...

 Your response defines classic in every way! Best words on GCA in months! Great stuff! That deserves a reprint inside every collection of printed crap left around the locker rooms of any private club. Let'em read that on the throne!!!
 :o

S

PS...Lest we forget, most Pittsburgher's need a little S&M to remind them of the furnaces and old yards. They kinda miss the pain & suffering just a bit. Having been born there, I can admit it.
« Last Edit: September 17, 2007, 07:33:21 PM by Steve Lapper »
The conventional view serves to protect us from the painful job of thinking."--John Kenneth Galbraith

Andy Troeger

Re:Why do members want to make their course harder ?
« Reply #28 on: September 17, 2007, 08:14:36 PM »
You want to play Butler National or Shoreacres?  

Gib,
I'll agree, great post. I played those two courses over the weekend and was thinking about mentioning that example on this thread. When I got done playing Shoreacres, probably one of the easiest courses in the top 100, my first thought was that if I had to pick a single course to play every day with no travel to other places, that Shoreacres would make my short list for consideration. Too much fun to be had out there.

After shooting a pretty good 86 at Butler National the next day I was too beat up to think about such things. The fellow I played with, a 3-5 hcp in his own right but not a long hitter, fired a mid-90's score. I bet he could have shot 75 at Shoreacres, if not the first time, within 2-3 plays. Don't get me wrong, Butler is a very strong course, but for my game Shoreacres is more fun.

Brock Peyer

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Re:Why do members want to make their course harder ?
« Reply #29 on: September 17, 2007, 09:31:16 PM »
In response to the question posed:  I am not sure.   While I admire Oakmont and would love to play it someday, I am not sure that I would want it to be my home club, especially if I were only a member there.  While I love a good test, who likes getting beat up every day.  I think that a club should always strive to improve but I don't think improving necessarily means increasing the difficulty.  

Tim Bert

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Re:Why do members want to make their course harder ?
« Reply #30 on: September 17, 2007, 09:56:14 PM »
My home course has gotten so easy that I've broken 85 three consecutive times from tee boxes only 650 yards short of the tips.  Why on earth wouldn't I want to be challenged more?   ??? ???

Bring it on!!!  ::)

Tony Ristola

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Re:Why do members want to make their course harder ?
« Reply #31 on: September 18, 2007, 07:18:32 AM »
Different answers for different markets.

I know one course is extending to somewhere close to 8,000 yards so it can boast in its advertising about being the longest in Europe.

They had a decent course to start and with and all the changes from building rock walls for their ponds, and the new volcano tees have succeeded in making the course worse and worse looking. If only the money had been spent to remove some of the breasts and sausages scattered about the site, the course would have looked better. Not to say a new tee or two could have been built, but where they've gone is simply hilarious... and sad at the same time. Someone at sometime will make a tidy sum undoing their stupidities.
« Last Edit: September 18, 2007, 07:28:43 AM by Tony Ristola »

George Pazin

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Re:Why do members want to make their course harder ?
« Reply #32 on: September 18, 2007, 09:59:02 AM »
A fair response, Gib.

I'm on record many times as saying that I truly believe Oakmont would be an amazing course with zero rough. I think it could be an Augusta-like ideal, as the greens and bunkering are more than strong enough to challenge even the world's best, and certainly the membership as well, and it would be a blast to play. However, there is no chance of that ever happening, the membership is committed to the Fownes credo (and I admire that, as he founded and built the course and club), so it's kind of pointless to question that.

As for relating the experiences of older golfers, my personal knowledge is admittedly limited; I'm simply relating stories that several shared during my series on Oakmont. One poster in particular said he played right behind a foursome of older women and, not only did they not slow anyone down, they appeared to be having a lot of fun.

And when it comes to infinite putting, well, one of my friends recently had the opportunity to play Oakmont. He calls himself a bad putter and yet made it around in no 3 putts. He's obviously a much better putter than he claims, but regardless, I'd hardly call Oakmont a poster child for infinite putting. I don't even recall anyone criticising them for that during my series.

In response to the question posed:  I am not sure.   While I admire Oakmont and would love to play it someday, I am not sure that I would want it to be my home club, especially if I were only a member there.  While I love a good test, who likes getting beat up every day.  I think that a club should always strive to improve but I don't think improving necessarily means increasing the difficulty.  

Curiously, this was the feeling of a poster on here the first time he played Oakmont. The subsequent follow up trips have completely changed his opinion. And it's not because he likes to get beat up.
« Last Edit: September 18, 2007, 10:05:10 AM by George Pazin »
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Adam Clayman

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Re:Why do members want to make their course harder ?
« Reply #33 on: September 18, 2007, 12:58:17 PM »
Can anyone who has played off season golf at Oakmont, comment on whether or not it was a lot more fun, watching the ball bounce through dormant turf?(Assuming it was also dry)

Even the dreaded double K, kikuyu, lays down plenty, allowing for more bounce and roll which begats creative shotmaking.
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Joe Bausch

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Re:Why do members want to make their course harder ?
« Reply #34 on: September 18, 2007, 01:32:02 PM »
Imagine the surprise when a course gets re-rated and sloped lower by the local golf association. The members start a campaign to "toughen" the course. Get that slope up to 136 from the members tees. More bunkers, higher rough, etc. They don't want their course to be a pushover. Some clubs just aren't happy if their slope is at 126.

That's a great point, Steve.  Better than 99% of golfers equate slope with difficulty, not realizing that slope is a relative measure (and even those few that realize that it is a relative measure don't understand what that really means).

So when they push for changes to their golf course to make it harder, what do they do?  They stretch it out, put bunkers at 280, pinch fairways and do all sorts of other stuff that is designed to prevent the expert player from lighting up their course.

And then they're shocked when this doesn't increase the slope, even if the course is clearly harder!


This might be slightly off-topic, but why hasn't the USGA bogey rating become as popular as the course rating and slope on scorecards?  I think most people could understand the bogey rating without having to go to the USGA web page!
@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

David Stamm

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Re:Why do members want to make their course harder ?
« Reply #35 on: September 18, 2007, 02:17:37 PM »
Why do guys buy a $400,000 sports car when they have no clue how to really drive it? All for show, in most cases, IMHO.
"The object of golf architecture is to give an intelligent purpose to the striking of a golf ball."- Max Behr

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Why do members want to make their course harder ?
« Reply #36 on: September 19, 2007, 02:49:35 AM »
George Pazin,

I like Oakmont, but, I'm not sure that I'd like it on a steady diet, especially with my putting woes.

Oakmont may represent the evolutionary response to equipment that produces shots that go farther and straighter.

The fairways and the flanking bunkers have been moved in.

Perhaps this is THE evolutionary response to technology.

However, I find it contradictory to the varietal nature of the game.

Under Oakmonts present configuration golf becomes a pass-fail endeavor, with little or no margin for variety.

Wide fairways inherently produce variety.

Narrow fairways with accompanying, flanking penal bunkers produce and dictate a single conformity, ONLY one way to play the golf course.

So, Oakmont presents a UNIQUE test, one that's fun and interesting to play.

But, do you want to take the same, identical test, every day ?

JESII

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Re:Why do members want to make their course harder ?
« Reply #37 on: September 19, 2007, 12:09:31 PM »
When a club modifies its course to be more difficult aren't they just restoring the architects intent? This of course assumes a "golden age" course.

How many players were able to break 80 or 90 or even 100 at most of these courses 80 years ago?

Due to the evolution of the game, courses have become increasingly easier to play over these 80 years...why not restore the original intent of the game?

Steve Kline

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Re:Why do members want to make their course harder ?
« Reply #38 on: September 19, 2007, 07:04:16 PM »
Gotta agree with JES II here. TOC was ridiculously long 100 years ago. It has to be much easier for everybody now given how straight and far everything goes. The fact that some courses had par 3's over 200 yards 100 years ago amazes me.

Adam Clayman

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"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Tom Huckaby

Re:Why do members want to make their course harder ?
« Reply #40 on: September 21, 2007, 10:50:06 AM »
Gib - that was a classic rant re Oakmont.

But please.  I make no claims to genius, but hopefully someone else can confirm about this....

Please. I think you are reaching here just a tad, eh? I remember Genius Goodale coining the phrase "infinite putting" back when I was a regular on this site and could hit my ass with both hands as opposed to now.

It wasn't Goodale who coined that term, it was I.  The context was discussions of Pasatiempo and what occurs when the greens get too speedy there.  I've used it many times since.

You're forgiven - apparently you've lived a lot of life since those "regular" times.

 ;D

TH
« Last Edit: September 21, 2007, 10:54:41 AM by Tom Huckaby »

Gib_Papazian

Re:Why do members want to make their course harder ?
« Reply #41 on: September 21, 2007, 02:42:02 PM »
Huckster,

A thousand pardons . . . . . you are absolutely correct that you are the author of the "infinite putting" comment - I am guessing it was in reference to #11 at Pasatiempo.

You'll have to forgive me; I ask special dispensation given that I have been running from the Wicked Witch and her Flying Monkeys the last few years.

As a sort of related question though, I wonder what Mackenzie would think of the insane speed of the greens at Pasatiempo, Cypress, Green Hills and (I am told) Crystal Downs?

Would he approve of watching middle handicapper like himself grinding over two-footers, with 15 inches of break on greens Stimping at 13?

Would a man who worships the "Spirit of St. Andrews" (pun intended) - and the core values of fast and fair play - nod in approval at the five hour rounds at Pasatiempo - the fault of which can blamed on worshipping the false idols of green speed and tangled rough?

Imagine #8 or #11 presented in a sane manner. . . . .

It might be time to vector this discussion towards a pet theory of mine - one that perhaps ought to be expressed in a separate thread, but loosely follows this discussion:

It is my distinct impression that cases of the dreaded Yips are becoming more and more prevalent in the last three decades. This is especially true of middle-age players and up, but there is also an alarming trend towards twitchy putters in the younger sets.

Is this due to the invention of the Stimp Meter? Have green speeds gotten so far out hand that they are beyond the neurological ability of most players to handle on a long term basis?

The pressure of competition is one aspect that certainly aggravates the problem - particularly because preparations for a tournament invariably include speeding up the putting surfaces.

Yet, even in regular club play - five dollar Nassau bets where nobody gets hurt - I see more and more guys who once rolled the rock with confidence resorting to claws, split hands, belly putters, broom handles and putting shorties with their eyes closed. One close friend of mine was so traumatized by this affliction out of sheer desperation he turned around and started putting left-handed.

This was certainly not the case 30 years ago. The old saw about suffering from "Whiskey Fingers" was only in extreme cases and I guarantee you there were more drunks at Olympic in 1977 than today.

So, eliminating the possibility that mankind's 'small motor skills' have devolved in the last three decades - computer keyboards and the invention of the mouse blows that theory - it logically must fall in how we prepare our golf courses.

Putter technology is 1000 times more sophisticated, but even the advantage of perfectly fitted putters seems inconsequential against tide towards blacking out with electric hands inside four feet.

Am I wrong?    





« Last Edit: September 21, 2007, 03:30:04 PM by Gib Papazian »

Tom Huckaby

Re:Why do members want to make their course harder ?
« Reply #42 on: September 21, 2007, 03:14:24 PM »
Gib:

As I say, you have my forgiveness.  Real life does tend to make the BS we spout in here get put into proper perspective.

As for your questions and thoughts, I am right there with you brother.  I truly believe that MacKenzie would re-croak if he saw how it gets at Pasa some days.  Thankfully not all days they get it rip-roaring fast (by my experience) but when they do, it's goofy-golf.  And that's just stupid.  Beyond the prospects for infinite putting, as you say grinding over two footers with 15 inches of break is also not what golf should be about.  And I think you're also right - we can blame it on the popularization of publishing stimp readings.  Now we have a stimp arms race, and it's just plain stupid.

You know what sucks most about it at a place like Pasa though?  The fast speeds mean that nearly all the fun pins are eliminated from use.  I played golf the other day with the man who set the pins for the recent US Am qualifier round there, and he regaled me with horror stories of what he had to do to find doable stroke play pins on damn near every green.  8 of course was the worst... he said he had to finally punt, there was NO fair pin there.  Then he watched as the 3 and 4 putts occurred.... this with the great players... that's just not right.

TH

Gib_Papazian

Re:Why do members want to make their course harder ?
« Reply #43 on: September 21, 2007, 04:16:04 PM »
There is, of course, an answer to this. It involves simply changing the perception of the masses.

We did it with soft spikes.

We did it with tree removal.

We did it by convincing most clubs that "hard par easy bogey" was not workable for club play.

And vast amounts of progress is being made to beat back the perception that "brown is bad."

This can be done, and it begins in places like this website because Ran's little idea has blossomed into an incredibly well-respected and influential forum for opinions.

I remember Brad Klein and I arguing one day about this board; his contention was that only a tiny percentage of the players in the world know anything of its existence - nor could comprehend half of what is discussed here.

Yet, how many times have I gotten strange e-mails from far away places regarding one of my posts or even hearing architects talk about what a bunch of assh*les hang around in this little corner of cyberspace. But they must be reading it then, correct?

Most of the major changes in architecture, restoration and the philosophy of "firm and fast" make good sense.

Deep rough and idiotic green speeds are expensive and contrary to the spirit of the game. You don't see green chairmen in the U.K. ringing up the maintenance shack and dragging out the Green Keeper with a glass of gin in one hand and a Stimp Meter in the other, do you?

That is because we are idiots in this country. Not about everything, but the tendency always seems to move towards pushing everything too far.

"*Big* is its own justification to you Americans" is my favorite slam ever, delivered with rapier timing by a fat old Brit in a London Pub more years ago than I care to admit.

If the USGA would put aside their hopeless, politically correct First Tee Program and concentrate on making the game more affordable and user friendly, more people in America would pick up clubs as opposed to putting them down.

Pace of Play is the NUMBER ONE issue to solve right now, not hot drivers, slowing down the golf ball or worrying about whether little Jamal gets free range balls and a photo op with Tiger.

Thus, everybody who has a vested interest in the game beginning with Superintendents, the USGA and managers of golf courses, have got to band together and slow down the greens, cut down the rough and make the game fast and fun again.

You want to talk about pin positions at Pasatiempo? Those greens have no business running one micron past ten on the Stimp. I mean it. The contours are wild and maybe if the greens were not kept on the edge of death, they would not have to harpoon every foursome out of a thousand dollars just to put a peg in the dirt.

The entire affair is sickening because the cost of keeping golf courses at such a finely honed edge have elevated expectations far far beyond what is possible in the real world without idiotic expenditures.

It does not have to be this way - and I read and hear constant lip service from all the pundits, but nobody ever does anything about it because there is always the promise of a new turf variety around the corner that will actually tolerate mowing down to one millionth of an inch.

But nobody ever seems to stand up at the club meeting and scream:

WHY????????????

What the f*ck is the point of tearing up our greens and replanting a grass variety that will allow - no encourage - unplayable and completely inappropriate speeds?

Yet the USGA - who have the necessary gravitas to turn the tide - do nothing. If their core philosophy and mission statement is to administrate for the good of the game of golf, then what is more important that taking steps to solve our biggest problem: Pace of play and out of control costs???????

Don't look to Tim Finchem and the rest of the gravy train circus animals to speak up - most of them are on cruise control and probably never think of anything deeper than what time their private jet will get them home and why they were forced to eat red caviar when they very clearly ordered black.

I remember when you could hear the shrieks of protest echoing through the halls at Olympic about tree removal . . . . . it was the absolute end of western civilization and a sure sign of the apocalypse coming with the hammer of God.

Yet, with a good enough sales job - starting with a couple of regulars on this board who shall remain nameless - even the crabby old men quickly learned to love the dry conditions and springy turf.

So the next time I turn on Golf Channel, I want to see some ads and interviews from the USGA about the importance of growing the game through making the game more accessible, user friendly and fast.

We already tried continuous putting and all it did was put hoof prints in everybody's line . . . . . .



 

 

 
« Last Edit: September 21, 2007, 04:22:32 PM by Gib Papazian »

Tom Huckaby

Re:Why do members want to make their course harder ?
« Reply #44 on: September 21, 2007, 04:35:53 PM »
Gib:

You know why this hasn't taken hold and likely never will.

Because Americans today love fast and smooth greens. I really think you could argue until you're blue in the face and you're not going to convince anyone other than the screwballs who inhabit this place that slower and curvier is better than fast and smooth and straight.

But I'll back you up if you want to try.

BTW, even 9 is too fast at Pasa.

Just thought of something though:  the new Stonebrae will be an interesting test case.  Management told us the other day the intention is for the greens to never go beyond 9 - that the architect intends the bold contours to be used and add fun, not frustration (my words, paraphrasing).  

It's a high-end place, pretty top dollar... will membership stick with this, or will they demand faster greens?

It will be interesting to follow.

TH
« Last Edit: September 21, 2007, 04:54:42 PM by Tom Huckaby »

Gib_Papazian

Re:Why do members want to make their course harder ?
« Reply #45 on: September 21, 2007, 04:54:15 PM »
Huckster,

"Fast" and "Smooth" are two different words. I agree that smooth greens are an essential . . . . but long term, it is easier to achieve smooth greens if the turf is not stressed on the edge of death.

The two best examples in California I can think of are Saddle Creek and Stevinson Ranch. I've played Stevinson many times as it is a favorite, but on both trips to Saddle Creek I found perfectly smooth putting surfaces rolling around eight or nine, and healthy as you can imagine. Stevinson's putting surface speeds always seems just right . . . . even on the Redan #7.

What is the difference between a putting surface with 2 degrees of slope running at 12 and the same green with four or five degrees of slope running at 9?

At the end of the day, it is all the same if you really think about it.

As a related issue, I have played NGLA both with screaming fast greens as well as with a more rational set-up.

There is no comparison. #1 is unplayable when running past nine, so is #6. I don't care where you put the pin on either green, the result is still as bad as #11 at Pasatiempo.

So, if I can muster up the gumption to actually criticize the "maintenance meld" at my holiest shrine, there must be some truth in my rantings.

It CAN be done. We CAN change the tide.

Education begins with the USGA . . . . . . the R&A hardly needs to tackle this problem, they are smart enough to leave well enough alone.  
« Last Edit: September 21, 2007, 04:55:39 PM by Gib Papazian »

Phil Benedict

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Re:Why do members want to make their course harder ?
« Reply #46 on: September 21, 2007, 04:54:57 PM »

If the USGA would put aside their hopeless, politically correct First Tee Program and concentrate on making the game more affordable and user friendly, more people in America would pick up clubs as opposed to putting them down.



Not that it really changes your point but I don't believe the First Tee Program is administered by the USGA.

Tom Huckaby

Re:Why do members want to make their course harder ?
« Reply #47 on: September 21, 2007, 04:57:36 PM »
Gib:

I am on your side re this, believe me.

I just remain a doubting Thomas that this will take hold anywhere outside of this forum.

But see what I added to my previous post... Stonebrae right there in Hayward will be an interesting test case.  And it does prove one thing:  that the idea is out there.  That has to be good news.  But not to be too pessimistic, but I'll bet you those greens get to 11 by the time the first club championship is held next summer... and they stay nowhere under 10 from that point forward.

It just seems to be what American golfers want.

TH

Rick Shefchik

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Re:Why do members want to make their course harder ?
« Reply #48 on: September 21, 2007, 05:12:37 PM »
American golfers want lightning fast greens on their own course when they're in the bar, but when they're standing over a sidehill 3-footer, it's a different story. Watch the look on the guy's face when he misses and it slides six feet below the hole, and remember that he was one of the guys in the bar the night before who was complimenting the super because the greens were finally starting to get up to the speed he likes.

This is a fight that can be won -- just like tree removal. I understand John Kirk's lament that, when he's on his game and the wind is down, even a great course like Pacific Dunes can seem like kind of a drag, but for every John Kirk, I see dozens of guys who would desperately like to three-putt a little less often, despite what they say in the bar.
"Golf is 20 percent mechanics and technique. The other 80 percent is philosophy, humor, tragedy, romance, melodrama, companionship, camaraderie, cussedness and conversation." - Grantland Rice

Tom Huckaby

Re:Why do members want to make their course harder ?
« Reply #49 on: September 21, 2007, 05:15:38 PM »
Rick:

The problem is, what they say in the bar matters way more than what they want in their hearts.

Few will want to pay top dollar to join "the course with the slow greens"... and stimp wars seem to exist right up there with who has the most expensive driver, at least among those who have the power/will to change things.

I just don't see a groundswell of movement for this idea, let alone a majority favoring the idea.

No one ever bragged about how many trees his course had.

TH

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