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Patrick_Mucci

Why do members want to make their course harder ?
« on: September 16, 2007, 09:52:39 PM »
I played a nice AWT course recently and couldn't help but notice that the hand of man was at work making the golf course more difficult than it had been in past years.  

Narrowed fairways and deep, thick rough combined to make the golf course harder.  And then I thought, for whom ?

This was a member oriented club absent a large cadre of low handicap golfers, yet, the course presented itself as a challenge far beyond the abilities of the membership.

One of the fellows I was playing with was a member of Plainfield.  He informed me that a low handicap member of Plainfield had written a letter indicating his displeasure with tree removal and other changes at Plainfield in recent times.

I believe he stated that Plainfield was now much easier,
the equivalent of a par 64 golf course.

I then asked the member, "what score won the club championship this year ?"  He replied " 77, 77"

At club after club I see efforts to "beef" the course up, to make it resist scoring more.  And then I ask myself, "WHY ?"
And, for whom ?

Why are so many clubs trying to make their courses more difficult ?

Certainly more difficult than the membership can handle.

What's behind this apparent phenomenon ?

Is it because "one" or a few golfers shoot an outstanding score ?  And thus, the club scrambles to shore up its defenses ?
« Last Edit: September 16, 2007, 09:54:54 PM by Patrick_Mucci »

Ken Moum

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Why do members want to make their course harder ?
« Reply #1 on: September 16, 2007, 10:09:49 PM »
I think it's nothing more than the groupthink that has begun to equate good with hard.

For instance, how many times have you heard the terms "good par four," or "good driving hole," uttered to mean they were difficult?

Where it came from I know not.

But not long ago I was grumbling about the fact that the fairways at my home course have narrowed by 10 yards over the past two years. One of the people present was a fairly good senior woman (~11 handicap) who essentially said, "We need narrower fairways and deeper rough."

She's a Ph.D who has no interest in discussing these things, so that was that. FWIW, the fairway went from 35-40 yards down to 25-30.

We've lost a few mature trees lately, and several players of handicaps from 2 to 20 have suggested that we have to "do something" to keep our gold course from being emasculated.

What's remarkable to me is that none of them will even entertain a discussion on the matter.

Ken

Over time, the guy in the ideal position derives an advantage, and delivering him further  advantage is not worth making the rest of the players suffer at the expense of fun, variety, and ultimately cost -- Jeff Warne, 12-08-2010

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Why do members want to make their course harder ?
« Reply #2 on: September 16, 2007, 10:14:30 PM »
Pat,
At our course we have a few ex presidents that are trying right now to do such things(none can break par or come close)..thinking we need more tees etc when all we need is to change the blue tee scorecard to a par 70 and move on down the road....no clue...just egos and what their buddies at other clubs would say....I become more convinced everyday that one of the biggest scams going is selling hype to club committees....in 99 percent of the cases they have no business making the decisions they make.....
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Jordan Wall

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Why do members want to make their course harder ?
« Reply #3 on: September 16, 2007, 10:17:31 PM »
Pat,

I think part of the reason members may want their course to play harder is so they can justify high scores.

In the case of Plainfield, what member would want to win the club championship shooting 77-77 on an 'easy' golf course?

At least on a hard golf course high scores dont seem so bad.


Jim Johnson

Re:Why do members want to make their course harder ?
« Reply #4 on: September 16, 2007, 10:20:52 PM »
Ego, I think, Pat.

This phenomena of "beefing up" golf courses is so backwards, it truly baffles me. What's wrong with giving people a "fun" experience?

O/T or not... my wife and I had some guests over this afternoon watching the tail-end of the Tiger Woods show and then the NFL games, and Mark C. chunked one out of the green-side rough onto the putting surface. My wife said to me ... "what was that course that we played this summer that gave you all kinds of options around the greens?" ("Blackhawk", Edmonton, Alberta)

I then mentioned to our guests that Blackhawk presented all of these great options around the greens, from their use of chipping areas, allowing the use of a putter, wedge, or anything in between, as opposed to the thick nasty stuff around the edge of the PGA putting surfaces that basically limits anything but a wedge. This approach at Blackhawk made for FUN golf, not difficult, unless you placed your approach in the wrong spot.

Jim

Mike Sweeney

Re:Why do members want to make their course harder ?
« Reply #5 on: September 16, 2007, 10:28:25 PM »
Never been a big fan of Pete Dye. Here is why:

http://online.wsj.com/article_email/SB118980653444028005-lMyQjAxMDE3ODE5NTgxMDU2Wj.html

Why are his courses so hard? "You might as well ask why people who are members of perfectly good golf clubs fly to Scotland and Ireland to play golf in the rain for a week and never come close to breaking 90," he said. Most of his designs are for destination resorts that people will only play a handful of times a year -- and difficulty seems to be what they are after.

"I don't understand golfers one lick," he said. "Personally, if I couldn't break 90 on a course, I'd probably never want to play it again."

Bob_Huntley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Why do members want to make their course harder ?
« Reply #6 on: September 16, 2007, 10:31:49 PM »
Patrick,

I cannot imagine that the average club golfer wants to play a more difficult course than what he now has.

Apart from a few clubs, such has Winged Foot, Merion, Pine Valley etc., the qualifying scores for the Championship Flight at most Club Championships show a dismal performance with more numbers in the eighties than the seventies.

The ego of most club competitors is quite astounding...the plaintiff call of " I know I can play better than this, but I never do" is heard quite often.

Bob

M. Shea Sweeney

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Why do members want to make their course harder ?
« Reply #7 on: September 16, 2007, 10:33:51 PM »
Pat-

I really don't understand the whole concept.

But could it be the male ego taking over here?

Could it be that a majority of members would just like to say that their golf course is this and that for bragging right alone?

My father refuses to play Bethpage Black because "he doesn't find hitting driver--3wood into every hole 'fun'. I agree.

But there are a ton of people who like to say "man the black beat my ass today, I didn't even reach the fairway on 10!"


don't get me wrong its nice to be tested and succeed under said conditions, however I don't understand why this process would be appealing for a 'member' who is playing their golf course regularly.

One of my favorite golf courses is Rockaway Hunt Club. I told one of my college buddies this who is an assistant at Oakmont. He told me I was nuts because "it's short and quirky". Love what they do there, and could play the golf course everyday.

A very funny process.



ed_getka

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Why do members want to make their course harder ?
« Reply #8 on: September 17, 2007, 01:15:09 AM »
Patrick,
   It is ego pure and simple. Most golfers I run into (outside of this group here) think the be all and end all of a great course is the slope (which they equate with difficulty) and the speed of the greens (which they equate with difficulty).
   The rest just comes from copycatting what the majors do, narrow fairways, deep rough, and superfast greens. Interestingly I don't see too many of these courses keeping their greens very firm. I guess they want the ball to roll fast, but they want their mediocre approach shots to hold the greens.
   
"Perimeter-weighted fairways", The best euphemism for containment mounding I've ever heard.

Rich Goodale

Re:Why do members want to make their course harder ?
« Reply #9 on: September 17, 2007, 03:25:27 AM »
The last two posts have nailed it.  Most club golfers can't break 90 under competitive conditions, and so the only way they can stroke their golfing egos is vicariously--my grill room is fancier than yours, my cigars are better, my course is harder, my trophy wife has better plastic surgery, etc., etc., etc.

BTW, I love the way that Pete Dye understands this completely, and shamelessly caters to the egos of his clients.  My guess is that he could build as subtle and arty courses as do Doak and C&C (and certainly came close at Harbourtown), but he just doesn't care to go through all the hassle.

Ken Moum

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Why do members want to make their course harder ?
« Reply #10 on: September 17, 2007, 10:34:37 AM »
the course has to be "top notch" -- which most people equate with difficult.

That's been my observation as well. So the question becomes, "Who decided that difficult = good? And, why didn't I get to vote?"

WHY do people think difficult = good in golf?

Ken
Over time, the guy in the ideal position derives an advantage, and delivering him further  advantage is not worth making the rest of the players suffer at the expense of fun, variety, and ultimately cost -- Jeff Warne, 12-08-2010

Richard Choi

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Why do members want to make their course harder ?
« Reply #11 on: September 17, 2007, 11:08:28 AM »
I guess you can also ask the question "why do people climb Mt Everest when there are hills nearby that is much safer and fun to climb".

Some people just seek thrill and getting your butt kicked by a hard course releases more Endorphins than just a nice stroll through an easy course.

At least with golfers, if we don't break par, we don't die...

Steve_ Shaffer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Why do members want to make their course harder ?
« Reply #12 on: September 17, 2007, 11:29:07 AM »
Imagine the surprise when a course gets re-rated and sloped lower by the local golf association. The members start a campaign to "toughen" the course. Get that slope up to 136 from the members tees. More bunkers, higher rough, etc. They don't want their course to be a pushover. Some clubs just aren't happy if their slope is at 126.
"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

David Lott

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Why do members want to make their course harder ?
« Reply #13 on: September 17, 2007, 01:52:11 PM »
Just as most golfers overestimate their ability, most members overestimate the "difficulty" of their golf course. Only a very few courses would be difficult (I define difficulty here as ability to break par) to a tour pro, and most of those have to be set up in a way that temporarily increases the challenge. You can make it harder for the members, but at only a few clubs do you find sub par rounds in club championships. Set up a course truly hard, like Oakmont this year, and most players would lose count of their score, or wish they could.

As to why this is true, I think its just that ignorance and stupidity is rampant in all endeavors. It's a human thing.

David Lott

henrye

Re:Why do members want to make their course harder ?
« Reply #14 on: September 17, 2007, 02:43:44 PM »
I don't know if this is true in general.  Pat, you've cited some observations of a number of clubs, but I suspect most modification to courses are for what the club deems to be improvements (not necessarily increasing difficulty).

Steve Lapper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Why do members want to make their course harder ?
« Reply #15 on: September 17, 2007, 03:02:01 PM »

One of the fellows I was playing with was a member of Plainfield.  He informed me that a low handicap member of Plainfield had written a letter indicating his displeasure with tree removal and other changes at Plainfield in recent times.

I believe he stated that Plainfield was now much easier,
the equivalent of a par 64 golf course.

I then asked the member, "what score won the club championship this year ?"  He replied " 77, 77"


    Though obvious by the level of club championship scoring, Plainfield plays tougher than ever post Gil's recent restoration steps. "Opening up" the course by removing trees and replacing & re-digging strategic bunkers has allowed the rough to grow denser and more evenly. Wind has become a real factor again and the turf conditions have become consistently excellent.
   Whoever the complainer was, I'm sure his particular game has been impacted, and probably, for the worse. Par 64...that is hilarious!
The conventional view serves to protect us from the painful job of thinking."--John Kenneth Galbraith

Adam Clayman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Why do members want to make their course harder ?
« Reply #16 on: September 17, 2007, 03:28:42 PM »
It is ignorance that pre-determines a course will be oh so much easier once trees are felled.

In Pat's example with Plainfield, I'd be curious if the statement maker can back up Par 64?
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Paul Stephenson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Why do members want to make their course harder ?
« Reply #17 on: September 17, 2007, 03:29:42 PM »
We had a resdesign recently completed, and the result is a harder course.  There was no real length added.  The hard comes from additional bunkers that are very much in play vs the old bunkers that you had to try to hit the ball into (and somethimes missed).

There was mention above of sub par club championships.  Our course usually has a few under par scores.  I've been 288 in the past and not been in the top 3.  

This year's winning score was 295, the highest it has been in years.  The reason is was not the redesign, it was the greens.  They were double cut and rolled each day over the Labour Day weekend, and our Super said he had them at 11 to 11.5 on the stimp.  This was way faster than the membership was used to, and therefore much harder.

I'm sure that an informal poll of the memberships would have resulted in "yes we loved the greens," but "no we don't want them like this everyday."

Sometimes a mower will make members' courses harder, and save lots of $$$ in the process.  As to why?  I have no idea.  The game is hard enough.
« Last Edit: September 17, 2007, 03:30:22 PM by Paul Stephenson »

Adam Clayman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Why do members want to make their course harder ?
« Reply #18 on: September 17, 2007, 03:38:33 PM »
Paul, Firm fast grass is a hazard.
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

David Lott

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Why do members want to make their course harder ?
« Reply #19 on: September 17, 2007, 03:42:22 PM »
Only a very few courses would be difficult (I define difficulty here as ability to break par) to a tour pro, and most of those have to be set up in a way that temporarily increases the challenge.

Set up a course truly hard, like Oakmont this year, and most players would lose count of their score, or wish they could.

As to why this is true, I think its just that ignorance and stupidity is rampant in all endeavors. It's a human thing.





David, no offense, but those first two statements reflect a mindset that is the major source of of the problem!

. . . .

The sooner we stop defining difficult by "is Tiger challenged?", the sooner we solve the problem.  

Shivas:

Obviously, I did not make my point very clearly.

Basically I agree with you wholeheartedly.

David Lott

Steve Lapper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Why do members want to make their course harder ?
« Reply #20 on: September 17, 2007, 03:54:47 PM »
Paul, Firm fast grass is a hazard.

Hardly. It is no more than a playing condition variable that influences the roll of the ball.

And I'm sure the mook at Plainfield has ZERO evidence that might back up any part of his statement.
The conventional view serves to protect us from the painful job of thinking."--John Kenneth Galbraith

Jim Franklin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Why do members want to make their course harder ?
« Reply #21 on: September 17, 2007, 03:57:31 PM »
I wish I knew. Our club has been lengthened, rough thicker, etc... Our medalist shot 151. It is not fun at all to play from those black tees, but you have to if you want to try and win the club championship. The blue tees are still a blast to play, but these idiots on the golf committees that want to make a course harder are fools. I keep hearing from these guys, "isn't this awesome?" No.
Mr Hurricane

Gib_Papazian

Re:Why do members want to make their course harder ?
« Reply #22 on: September 17, 2007, 05:14:53 PM »
The downward slide nearly always begins with a group of hubris infested low-handicappers getting control of the Green Committee. Then, all you need is a weak president of the club, retarded sheep on the membership roles, a Superintendent afraid for his job and voila’, you get Butler National.

I don’t have a huge objection to the construction of new back tees if that sort of masochism makes the plus-men happy – I just don’t want to be compelled to trudge back and pretend that my penis is long enough to reach the fairway.

So, as long as they are not obtrusive or eliminate 80% of the field in the club championship, the trouble is not with new tees. In my view, it begins when the rough suddenly begins to look like Abbie Hoffman’s hair and the fairways get skinnier than a bulimic supermodel.

It is a mystery to me why setting up the golf course to appeal to 5% of the club does not more often result in an insurrection and overthrow of the (ir)responsible parties.

This is tangential in some measure, but having fought arthritis in my hands for the past ten years, I cannot imagine how elderly players even get around a golf course like Oakmont without hurting themselves. And why don’t they ask the golf course be kept reasonable between major championships?

All that Pittsburgh tough guy horsesh*t aside, once you get up there in age a little bit, what is the point in beating yourself senseless for 18 holes? Is walking off the last green exhausted fun?

You want to play Butler National or Shoreacres? Balturol Lower or Piping Rock? I don't want to be horsewhipped 18 times and am certain neither do the vast majority of the club members in America.

I've played many many courses in the U.K. and they seem to have far more sense and perspective than we do on this subject. Carnoustie is hard, that is for sure, but it does not beat you with deep grass and putting surfaces on the edge of death.

What is the matter with everybody, is it a fear of being emasculated in the eyes of their peers? We are quickly losing sight of the basic precept that golf is supposed to be enjoyable and not simply a contest to establish who possesses the most brute strength.

Yet, the sheep go along with it because nobody wants to point out the emperor not only has no clothes, but is making decisions for a tiny percentage of players who are still pissed they missed the qualifier at the State Am and want to prove to everybody they belong with the Randy Haigs or Trip Kuehnes of the world.

But they don’t, so they inflict their vacant machismo on the rest of the players in the club and pretend that because Bushwood down the street has a tougher course rating, they must have better players and prettier wives and more status.

So, in order to rectify this horrible disparity, it is necessary to grow the rough and add a bunch of bunkers and forced carries to prove who has the biggest set of juevos in this nuclear arms race.

If I were king, my first move in golf would be to cut all the rough to the tree lines at every single course in America. You want to speed up play? Start there. Only an idiot finds joy in hacking their ball out of the cabbage back into the fairway.

Even those years when I was a legit 2, I could never understand the tendency of good players towards self-flagellation. If you like S&M so much, the Power Exchange in San Francisco (www.powerexchange.com) will be pleased to accommodate you, but from a golf standpoint, I want to have the opportunity to hit a recovery shot – something 90% of the players cannot do buried in the grass.

Now that I officially stink, I find ridiculously difficult set-ups offensive and an affront to the very reason we play the game.

It is just more preaching to the choir, but the same jackasses who want to make a hard course impossible are also the dummies who think a Stimp Meter measures the quality of their greens.

Of course, the Superintendent has two kids in college and will never dare to point out the putting surfaces will have to be flattened (or be unplayable) if the Green Chairman gets his way and they roll at 12 or 13 for everyday play - not just for the Invitational or Club Championship.

So in answer to the original question, I do not believe the vast majority of members want to make their course harder – notice I did not say more interesting – but harder. It is the low-handicap leadership who con everybody into signing off on something that is going to shorten their golfing lives and create an obstacle course.

But how often are the rank and file afraid to question the word of one of their crack players? Ooooooooh, Joe Slick is a two handicap and was once a quarterfinalist in the County Amateur, so he must know better than any of the mid-handicappers who actually play the game for enjoyment.

Yet nobody dares to speak up, so the train keeps barreling down the tracks . . . . . the only hope for the club is a group of members who contribute to this website and can argue in a cogent fashion why it would be best for Joe Slick and his coterie of big shots to resign and join the masochists at Bushwood.  
« Last Edit: September 17, 2007, 10:13:36 PM by Gib Papazian »

Jim Franklin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Why do members want to make their course harder ?
« Reply #23 on: September 17, 2007, 05:52:57 PM »
The downward slide nearly always begins with a group of hubris infested low-handicappers getting control of the Green Committee. Then, all you need is a weak president of the club, retarded sheep on the membership roles, a Superintendent afraid for his job and voila’, you get Butler National.

I don’t have a huge objection to the construction of new back tees if that sort of masochism makes the plus-men happy – I just don’t want to be compelled to trudge back and pretend that my penis is long enough to reach the fairway.

So, as long as they are not obtrusive or eliminate 80% of the field in the club championship, the trouble is not with new tees. In my view, it begins when the rough suddenly begins to look like Abbie Hoffman’s hair and the fairways get skinnier than a bulimic supermodel.

It is a mystery to me why setting up the golf course to appeal to 5% of the club does not more often result in an insurrection and overthrow of the (ir)responsible parties.

This is tangential in some measure, but having fought arthritis in my hands for the past ten years, I cannot imagine how elderly players even get around a golf course like Oakmont without hurting themselves. And why don’t they ask the golf course be kept reasonable between major championships?

All that Pittsburgh tough guy horsesh*t aside, once you get up there in age a little bit, what is the point in beating yourself senseless for 18 holes? Is walking off the last green exhausted fun?

You want to play Butler National or Shoreacres? Balturol Lower or Piping Rock? I don't want to be horsewhipped 18 times and am certain neither do the vast majority of the club members in America.

I've played many many courses in the U.K. and they seem to have far more sense and perspective than we do on this subject. Carnoustie is hard, that is for sure, but it does not beat you with deep grass and putting surfaces on the edge of death.

What is the matter with everybody, is it a fear of being emasculated in the eyes of their peers? We are quickly losing sight of the basic precept that golf is supposed to be enjoyable and not simply a contest to establish who possesses the most brute strength.

Yet, the sheep go along with it because nobody wants to point out the emperor not only has no clothes, but is making decisions for a tiny percentage of players who are still pissed they missed the qualifier at the State Am and want to prove to everybody they belong with the Randy Haigs or Trip Kuehnes of the world.

But they don’t, so they inflict their vacant machismo on the rest of the players in the club and pretend that because Bushwood down the street has a tougher course rating, they must have better players and prettier wives and more status.

So, in order to rectify this horrible disparity, it is necessary to grow the rough and add a bunch of bunkers and forced carries to prove who has the biggest set of juevos in this nuclear arms race.

If I were king, my first move in golf would be to cut all the rough to the tree lines at every single course in America. You want to speed up play? Start there. Only an idiot finds joy in hacking their ball out of the cabbage back into the fairway.

Even those years when I was a legit 2, I could never understand the tendency of good players towards self-flagellation. If you like S&M so much, the Power Exchange in San Francisco (www.powerexchange.com) will be pleased to accommodate you, but from a golf standpoint, I want to have the opportunity to hit a recovery shot – something 90% of the players cannot do buried in the grass.

Now that I officially stink, I find ridiculously difficult set-ups offensive and an affront to the very reason we play the game.

It is just more preaching to the choir, but the same jackasses who want to make a hard course impossible are also the dummies who think a Stimp Meter measures the quality of their greens.

Of course, the Superintendent has two kids in college and will never dare to point out the putting surfaces will have to be flattened (or be unplayable) if the Green Chairman gets his way they roll at 12 or 13 for every day play - not just for the Invitational or Club Championship.

So in answer to the original question, I do not believe the vast majority of members want to make their course harder – notice I did not say more interesting – but harder. It is the low-handicap leadership who con everybody into signing off on something that is going to shorten their golfing lives and create an obstacle course.

But how often are the rank and file afraid to question the word of one of their crack players? Ooooooooh, Joe Slick is a two handicap and was once a quarterfinalist in the County Amateur, so he must know better than any of the mid-handicappers who actually play the game for enjoyment.

Yet nobody dares to speak up, so the train keeps barreling down the tracks . . . . . the only hope for the club is a group of members who contribute to this website who can argue in a cogent fashion why it would be best for Joe Slick and his coterie of big shots to resign and join the masochists at Bushwood.  


The greatest response in GCA history. Thank you Gib for that, I agree with you 1000%. I kept saying the same things at my club and I get looked at like I am an idiot. I don't want my course to beat me up. I can play it, but it is not fun.
Mr Hurricane

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Why do members want to make their course harder ?
« Reply #24 on: September 17, 2007, 06:06:13 PM »
My theory is that it is all about ego gratification, in the eyes of others. I believe most golfers want courses set up right at their own level of golf, maybe just a wee bit above it, so that anyone below the level really struggles, and it makes the golfer look great by comparison. In certain special circumstances, some members want it impossible for everyone, so that everyone shares in his or her frustration.

In deference to Ayn, I call it Secondhander golf.

----

As for Oakmont, many who've played the course comment on how they see older women getting around the course comfortably. Everyone of course thinks I'm crazy, but I believe Oakmont presents a wonderful, intelligent challenge for all levels of golfers, short of absolute beginners (who should probably be on ranges, par 3, or executive type courses anyway).
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

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