Tinkering at Hidden Creek

[Patrick_Mucci]

After walking the golf course and reviewing mowing lines, fairway bunkering,  approach heights and green contours, Bill Coore has made some modifications to some of the holes at Hidden Creek.

# 2
A new Championship tee, behind and to the right of the existing tee, about 20-25 yards further back.

# 3
A small fairway bunker in a central location about 120 yards from the green.

# 4
The cart path will be moved to the extreme right of the hole.

# 9
A new member tee will be constructed between the current member tee and the Championship tee.
Fescue rough will also be removed from the left side of the green, and replaced by bent fairway grass to create chipping options for those who miss left.

# 11  The tee will be expanded left an dback of the current membership/championship tee.

In analyzing courses today, it would seem that the evaluative process must examine both the membership and the championship tees so that the golf course can serve more than one master, in a balanced fashion

[TEPaul]

"# 3
A small fairway bunker in a central location about 120 yards from the green."

Hmmm. Where is that exactly? That sounds suspiciously like the only suggestion I ever made about Hidden Creek.

[Mike_Cirba]

Patrick,

All of those ideas sound sound, but if they touch the 11th hole I'll be out there with a shotgun.  

[Patrick_Mucci]

TEPaul,

My understanding is that it's to be a center fairway feature.

Mike Cirba,

I think most recognize that # 11 is a wonderful hole in its current configuration, hence I doubt that anything would be done at the green end.

I'm a big fan of the golf course, it meets my critical test.

However, there are certain aspects that might lend themselves to fine tuning in the context of presenting an enjoyable challenge to different levels of golfers.

Many clubs, in an effort to "give back" to the game, lend their course for competitive events.

A course that presents a challenge to the membership may not present a comparable challenge to the better player, hence, I see many clubs bifurcating the issue and making alterations for Championship play and Membership play.

I think Hidden Creek has undertaken that process.

Eternal vigilance is the price of greatness.

I can envision future changes on a number of holes.

[Mark Bourgeois]

Patrick

Can you please tell us more about Bill Coore's process? Can you elaborate on "reviewing?" Was it one walk through; who at the club did he consult; etc.?

I guess an expert could make most of these decisions quickly; however, the central fairway bunker: did he decide that right away?

Thanks
Mark

[Patrick_Mucci]

Patrick

Can you please tell us more about Bill Coore's process? Can you elaborate on "reviewing?" Was it one walk through; who at the club did he consult; etc.?

I guess an expert could make most of these decisions quickly; however, the central fairway bunker: did he decide that right away?

This wasn't Bill's first return and review of Hidden Creek.

As far as the team at Hidden Creek is concerned, it's usually Jeff Riggs (GCS), Ian Dalzell (GM) and Roger Hansen.

As to the timing of his decision, I couldn't tell you if it was spontaneous or if it had been percolating for some time.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Pat,

I think it's been percolating for some time. I recall a thread last year where Roger Hansen obliquely lamented HC's lower ranking.


www.golfclubatlas.com/forums2/index.php?board=1;action=display;threadid=27304;start=msg517594#msg517594


Steve

[Mike_Trenham]

I too am disapointed they apparently feel the need to lengthen #11.  When I played HC a few years ago in the GCA event, I loved the fact that that the #11 tee was so close to the 10th green that no stupid green chairman could try to lengthen the hole in the future.  I thought that this hole was routed this way just for that reason.  

So what if it plays short and is a birdie hole for the best players.  Unless they want to hose the US Open it does not matter very much.

[Mike_Cirba]

Patrick,

Thanks for the reply, and again, I think that much of the minor tweaking that has been suggested is quite appropo.

However, as Mike Trenham implies, I think the 11th at Hidden Creek needs to be lengthened about as much as the 11th at Shinnecock.   That is, not at all.  

[Mike Sweeney]

However, as Mike Trenham implies, I think the 11th at Hidden Creek needs to be lengthened about as much as the 11th at Shinnecock.   That is, not at all.  

In August that tee gets pretty beat up as two sets of tees play from it at 125 yards. I don't know if it is only a maintenance issue, but I would guess that is some part of it. #11 at Shinnecock plays 160-165 on the card and has two sets of tees. I would be shocked if Coore goes out past 150 on 11 at HC.

[Patrick_Mucci]

I too am disapointed they apparently feel the need to lengthen #11.  When I played HC a few years ago in the GCA event, I loved the fact that that the #11 tee was so close to the 10th green that no stupid green chairman could try to lengthen the hole in the future.  I thought that this hole was routed this way just for that reason.  

So what if it plays short and is a birdie hole for the best players.  Unless they want to hose the US Open it does not matter very much.

Mike Trenham,

Your analysis is flawed because if fails to recognize the enormous wear and tear on a relatively small tee.

The tee needs expanding.

While the walk from # 10 green to # 11 tee isn't long, it's not just a few short yards away either.

Mike Cirba,

Interesting comment about # 11 at Shinnecock.

I believe that Wayne Morrison and TEPaul can confirm that the 11th tee at SH has been raised, expanded and lengthened from years ago.

[Matt_Ward]

Pat:

The addition of a new champ tee at #2 is a good addition. It then brings into play the center-placed bunker that's present now.

I've always believed such an addition would be a benefit to the hole.

[wsmorrison]

"I believe that Wayne Morrison and TEPaul can confirm that the 11th tee at SH has been raised, expanded and lengthened from years ago."

I can confirm that the tee was raised.  Mostly because there was extra fill and it was right next to Saint Andrews Road and not for design reasons.  I can also confirm that the tee may soon be lowered to its original level thus going back to more of a skyline green effect.  As to lengthening, I don't think it has.  Today's scorecard indicates the hole is 158 yards long.  The opening day scorecard (Aug. 1, 1930--though not all 18 Flynn holes were in play on that date) has the hole at 152 yards.  I'd say the 6 yard difference is more likely due to measurement error than actual lengthening.

[Ian Dalzell]

Hopefully I can shed a little light on the hole #11 conversation, so that the club is not to be misunderstood.  As some of you before have hinted, and correctly so, we are only increasing the size of the tee due to wear and tear, not to make the hole more difficult or longer.  The current tee is very small, and it houses both the member and championship tee boxes.  In the heat of July and August it is under a little pressure from increased play, and we felt it wise to be proactive rather than reactive on conditioning.  We will add about 10 yards onto both the left hand side of the tee and the back of the tee.  We are NOT adding a whole new tee box, merely increasing the current teeing area to faciliate a greater number of rounds.  

While the member tee plays from 117 yards, the back edge is currently 127 yards, and so the maximum yardage after adding teeing area and some fescue rough edging should be no more than 135 yards.  It will not really impact the length considerably.  What will be intersting is to see whether the added left teeing area brings the left hand bunkering more into the golfers visual.

Hope this clears it up.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Ian,
Clears it up for me fine. I can hardly wait to birdie it again the next time I'm there!

Also, just to let you know, I was never worried. I knew you guys had it handled!

[Mike_Cirba]

Ian,

That's really great to hear.   Thanks for coming on here and clarifying.

The stretch from 10 thru 12 is my favorite on the course and each of those holes excel for completely different reasons.

Which might lead to an idea for a new thread, that is; how many of the best 3 hole stretches in golf don't have a single water hazard or forced carry?

[Tommy_Naccarato]

My favorite stretch of holes is 1-36, which of course includes the Patrick Mucci-gauge of rating a golf course by walking from the 18th green to the 1st tee. In my case it would be the fastest way from the 18th green to the first tee.

That's how good I think Hidden Creek really is.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mike Cirba,

Having played Hidden Creek recently, I can attest to the need for an expanded tee on # 11, it really gets beat up.

If # 10 wasn't so difficult, I'd probably favor switching the nines as I like the finishing hole and it's proximity to the back patio and dinning area.

The nine guests I've had recently all commented on how "sporty" and user friendly the golf course was.

They liked the W I D E fairways but commented that the greens were tough to figure out.  There's a lot of subtlety mixed in with the pronounced.

There is virtually NO water anywhere on the golf course.
And, the 5th hole doesn't have a bunker.

It's an unusual golf course that's quite enjoyable for every level of golfer.

[Mike_Cirba]

Patrick,

I completely agree with everything you just said.   I'd only add that the stretch from 10 thru 12 is particularly sublime.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mike,

# 13, 14, 15, 16, 17 and 18 aren't bad either.

I especially like the drive on # 13.

What do you think is the weakest hole, architecturally, at Hidden Creek ?

[Mike_Cirba]

Mike,

# 13, 14, 15, 16, 17 and 18 aren't bad either.

I especially like the drive on # 13.

What do you think is the weakest hole, architecturally, at Hidden Creek ?

Oh, 1, 8, 9, 15, & 16 don't really get my blood flowing but I'm sure you're going to tell me why I'm completely wrong.  

[archie_struthers]

 

Sounds like some nice changes to a good gof course!!!!

I'd like to see new deep tees on both 14 & 15 despite my advancing age...

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mike  Cirba,

# 8 ?  Are you serious ?

# 9 ?  Have you lost your mind.

You're right, you're completely wrong !  

Archie,

Why not one on # 17 ?

[archie_struthers]

 


In that my putting is suspect lately....I didn't want to ruin my best shot at birdie LOL!

[JESII]

The Mason-Dixon matches are a long running event that pits 10 or 12 players from the Golf Association of Philadelphia against 10 or 12 from the Mid-Atlantic Golf Association...Hidden Creek has been gracious enough to host this years event (it's a few weeks from now). I began this year with only a couple of goals...one of them was to make this team because of the venue...Tommy, I too really love this place, and think it is plenty of golf course for top flight amateur golf, and the changes can only enhance that effort.

I'll be curious to see that group of guys play the course and how they respond to it.