[Brett Morris]

Yes.

But rather than walking the hypothetical sand dunes or ocean fronted property looking for potential holes, could you do it on a flat piece of land devoid of any real natural features like Talking Stick?

I'd give it a go.

[Mike_Young]

Come on....do some of you really think you can do it the first time out and not screw up?  Fact is anybody can design a golf course...they have for years....there really isn't much respect given to the business nor has there ever been.....heck you will see guys "restoring" or "consulting" on some famous dead guy course and they have zero courses in the ground.  Would ol Donald really appreciate such?  
You guys slam JB over a "Dell" hole when in reality there are very few places where it can work and most would be designing it and never know it wasn't working until a couple of big rains in a grow in....BTW...was that considered good architecture at the time or just something that was picked up on and relayed as being "cool"?

BUT yes....most of you can design a golf course and most of them will work but they will be more expensive, if not unrealistic to build, they will take you at least twice as long and they will be impossible to maintain.....How do I know?  Because I have done that course.
 
The real measure is "Do you think you can acquire the design contract for your third or fourth course?"
Mike

[George Pazin]

Come on....do some of you really think you can do it the first time out and not screw up?

Who said he wouldn't?

Although I will add, there is ample evidence that amateurs can do it right the first time. Of course, those guys didn't have today's regulation mania to deal with!

[Garland Bayley]

...
You guys slam JB over a "Dell" hole when in reality there are very few places where it can work and most would be designing it and never know it wasn't working until a couple of big rains in a grow in....BTW...was that considered good architecture at the time or just something that was picked up on and relayed as being "cool"?
...

Correct me if I am mistaken, but Ron Whitten insisted on and got a Dell hole first design out of the box, where all the "experts" he worked with kept trying to rule it out.

If people followed Jeff's, and it seems now your "rules", then nobody would know about Astoria Country Club, because it would not have been built the way it is.

I wonder why it is that Tom Doak writes:

...
But under the parameters that have been suggested -- taking a good piece of ground and just having to build a "4" or better on the Doak scale -- I think there are lots of posters who could do better than that.
...

whereas, Jeff and Mike pooh-pooh the idea amateurs can do it.

Perhaps that's why he wrote:

I'm surprised so many have said "no" here and I suspect some of you are just lying because you don't want to be chewed out.

[Mike_Young]

Garland,
"Correct me if I am mistaken, but Ron Whitten insisted on and got a Dell hole first design out of the box, where all the "experts" he worked with kept trying to rule it out."
SO WHAT...I HAVE PLAYED THAT HOLE...IS RON WHITTEN THE ARCHITECT?  


"If people followed Jeff's, and it seems now your "rules", then nobody would know about Astoria Country Club, because it would not have been built the way it is."
HOW DO YOU KNOW IT WOULD NOT HAVE BEEN BUILT?....MY STATEMENT SAYS "VERY FEW PLACES"..MAYBE THAT IS ONE OF THOSE.

AS FOR TD'S STATEMENT RE AMATEURS DESIGNING...I AM IN AGREEMENT AND I THINK MY POST STATES THAT.....

MIKE

[Garland Bayley]

Well there, I went and done it. I got Mike yelling at me.  

Don't know if you would say that Ron Whitten is the "architect", but it seems from the accounts I recall, he is the designer of the Dell hole.

I do get mixed signals from his post. I admit he says we can design, but he also indicates failures (screw ups) and unrealistic designs will come from us.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Since the question was 'do you think you could design a decent golf course' not 'do you think you could design and build a decent golf course' I think the answer for most of us is unequivocally 'Yes'.


I didn't mean on paper, I meant "IN THE GROUND"[/color]

[Mike_Young]

Well there, I went and done it. I got Mike yelling at me.  

Don't know if you would say that Ron Whitten is the "architect", but it seems from the accounts I recall, he is the designer of the Dell hole.

I do get mixed signals from his post. I admit he says we can design, but he also indicates failures (screw ups) and unrealistic designs will come from us.

GARLAND,
I AM NOT YELLING AT ANYONE....I CALL RON WHITTEN A GOLF ARCHITECTURE WRITER AND EDITOR WHO COLLABORATED WITH ANOTHER ON A GOLF COURSE.....I DONT THINK HE WOULD CALL HIMSELF AN ARCHITECT EITHER.....IF HE DOES...HE NEEDS TO QUIT HIS DAY JOB.
WHAT ARE THE MIXED SIGNALS YOU INTERPRET FROM MY POST???
I THINK ALL OF US THAT DESIGN COURSES HAVE SCREW UPS....BUT I AM BEING REALISTIC AND THIS IS AN IDEALISTIC SITE.....SO MANY ON HERE THINK BECAUSE SOMEONE LIKE JEFF OR MYSELF SAY SOMETHING RE THE DEAD GUYS OR HOW IT USED TO BE DONE THAT WE DON'T UNDERSTAND WHERE MANY ON HERE THINK THEY ARE COMING FROM.....WHEN JUST THE OPPOSITE IS TRUE....I AM QUITE CONFIDENT THERE WERE JUST AS MANY BAD HOLES AND COURSES THEN AS THERE ARE NOW.....
 

[Garland Bayley]

If you are not yelling, then kill the caps.

[Mike_Young]

If you are not yelling, then kill the caps.

I DID NOT REALIZE caps meant i was yelling....i was just being lazy but i will do it in small letters....

[Garland Bayley]

Compare what you wrote

most of you can design a golf course and most of them will work but they will be more expensive, if not unrealistic to build, they will take you at least twice as long and they will be impossible to maintain

(emphasis added)

to what Tom wrote.
"But under the parameters that have been suggested -- taking a good piece of ground and just having to build a "4" or better on the Doak scale -- I think there are lots of posters who could do better than that."

[Mike_Young]

Compare what you wrote

most of you can design a golf course and most of them will work but they will be more expensive, if not unrealistic to build, they will take you at least twice as long and they will be impossible to maintain

(emphasis added)

to what Tom wrote.
"But under the parameters that have been suggested -- taking a good piece of ground and just having to build a "4" or better on the Doak scale -- I think there are lots of posters who could do better than that."

Tom was just being nicer than myself  I am not saying you cant build a 4....odds are it will be more expensive and unrealistic in the beginning....IMHO

[Michael Moore]

I didn't mean on paper, I meant "IN THE GROUND"[/color]

Pat -

What do you mean by designing something in the ground?

Do you mean gathering your construction team in a huddle and drawing your ideas in the dirt with a stick? I've seen some cool photos of Nick Faldo doing that.

I don't think I could convey enough information with the stick and dirt method - I would probably need pencil and paper to design a golf course.

Sorry to have answered the question that was asked.

[Dan Kelly]

The Lido contest is a perfect example. Every year, some incredibly intricate hole wins the prize - congrats to Bo Links BTW, if you read this my friend - but sometimes subtle, simple little features are best.

A strange little hump, bump or fall-off can be every bit as intriguing as huge-a-saurus bunkers or many other out-of-context features just to draw attention to themselves.

Does the best work, in any field, ever win the prizes? I doubt it.

[Mike_Young]

I didn't mean on paper, I meant "IN THE GROUND"[/color]

Pat -

What do you mean by designing something in the ground?

Do you mean gathering your construction team in a huddle and drawing your ideas in the dirt with a stick? I've seen some cool photos of Nick Faldo doing that.

I don't think I could convey enough information with the stick and dirt method - I would probably need pencil and paper to design a golf course.

Sorry to have answered the question that was asked.

MICHAEL,
Have you ever played a golf design that was not in the ground?
I can "design" a car with square tires on paper....
Mike

[Michael Moore]

Have you ever played a golf design that was not in the ground

I have never played a golf design, just golf courses.

It is possible for one guy to design a course and a bunch of other guys to build it, right?

As far as I know, Donald Ross designed Longmeadow and Walter Hatch built it, which makes Ross the designer.

[Michael Dugger]

seven o'clock my time.....that would make it ten in GA.

Yea, I'd say M. Young is probably drunk by now.

Why do you always get so upset when this kind of subject comes up, Mike Young?

You are doing what all of us wish we could.

You made it.  You succeeded.  You've "arrived."  You are better than us and have a track record to prove it.

Why do you have to continue to tell us how stupid we are, though, talk about how we COULD NEVER do what you do???

I don't get it.  WE ARE ZERO THREAT.  Again, you da man.  Garland and me are girly men....

[paul cowley]

"Re:Do you think you could design a decent golf course ?"

Interesting question that only can only be answered by those who have been able to create one......I know the question is conjecturing, but its a question that all of those who have been able to build a successful course have definitely asked themselves prior to embarking on their careers.....and always in the affirmative. IMO.

The tough part starts when you decide to make the break from "I think I can", to "I know I can and am willing to take risks to prove it".

That being said, I know there are many here who are just a risk away.

 

[Mike_Young]

seven o'clock my time.....that would make it ten in GA.

Yea, I'd say M. Young is probably drunk by now.

Why do you always get so upset when this kind of subject comes up, Mike Young?

You are doing what all of us wish we could.

You made it.  You succeeded.  You've "arrived."  You are better than us and have a track record to prove it.

Why do you have to continue to tell us how stupid we are, though, talk about how we COULD NEVER do what you do???

I don't get it.  WE ARE ZERO THREAT.  Again, you da man.  Garland and me are girly men....

Michael,
Sorry, i don't drink.  And you are taking this all wrong....I am not upset about any of this.....As a matter of fact Michael Moore just clarified the ENTIRE SUBJECT for me....HE IS CORRECT IN HIS STATEMENT and I AM WRONG.  As he says " he has only played golf courses" not designs....yes anyone can design a golf course....I just dont think that is what PM was saying.
As for putting words in my mouth...I have never said I was better than anyone on this board.....and I have never told anyone they were stupid....please show me where i have said you could never do what i do....
And I am not threatened by anything to do with GCA....Osama and Obama maybe but not GCA....
AND ....NO you DA MAN

[Tim Bert]

I've developed a pretty good knack for looking out the window on road trips and imagining good golf holes, stretches of good golf holes, or good golf courses on various plots of undeveloped land.  I've no doubt that I could do something special if I could only translate what I see in my head to the real word.  The translation is the problem.  

I can also see a beautiful scene or landscape and imagine myself painting it, but when I stick the paintbrush or the pen on the paper it doesn't come out like it looks in my head.  

I might be able to sit and explain my idea to someone on site.  I'd do a better job as the "author" than as the "illustrator."  To keep the book analogy going, I think I'm best suited to just maintain my current role as "reader", but it would be really cool to spend a couple days on site somewhere watching someone else "write the book."

[Michael Dugger]

seven o'clock my time.....that would make it ten in GA.

Yea, I'd say M. Young is probably drunk by now.

Why do you always get so upset when this kind of subject comes up, Mike Young?

You are doing what all of us wish we could.

You made it.  You succeeded.  You've "arrived."  You are better than us and have a track record to prove it.

Why do you have to continue to tell us how stupid we are, though, talk about how we COULD NEVER do what you do???

I don't get it.  WE ARE ZERO THREAT.  Again, you da man.  Garland and me are girly men....

Michael,
Sorry, i don't drink.  And you are taking this all wrong....I am not upset about any of this.....As a matter of fact Michael Moore just clarified the ENTIRE SUBJECT for me....HE IS CORRECT IN HIS STATEMENT and I AM WRONG.  As he says " he has only played golf courses" not designs....yes anyone can design a golf course....I just dont think that is what PM was saying.
As for putting words in my mouth...I have never said I was better than anyone on this board.....and I have never told anyone they were stupid....please show me where i have said you could never do what i do....
And I am not threatened by anything to do with GCA....Osama and Obama maybe but not GCA....
AND ....NO you DA MAN

Garland felt you bit off his head.

This isn't the first time I've felt both you and Jeff get yer boxers in a ruffle whenever this topic comes up.

If I was a designer I'd just laugh at me too

[paul cowley]

Michael...."Garland and me are girly men"....nah....just amateurs who haven't gotten a break.
Personally I think almost any of the top 50 posters here could make a positive contribution designing a course the first time out.

I'd enjoy helping facilitate that but its not my dirt, and for now I am but a broke philanthropist......but if things change, I think it would be fun to invite the top 50 to design a GCAtlas course [I have done the math and that works out to be 3.6 people inputting per hole].

Just imagine......

[Michael Dugger]

That is a hell of a thing to say, Paul, I really appreciate that.

You are doggone right I am an amateur, as is George Pazin, Dan Kelly, Slag Bandoon et al....

It is just impossible to intelligibly claim you would be skilled in "putting the course in dirt" without having actually done it a few times....for real.

It is silly to discuss how you would route a course until you actually have a real piece of land to start with, too....

But I think a few things can be concluded.  Budgetary considerations would encourage us to use as many natural features as possible, both to decrease earth moving costs and decrease the "shock" a piece of land withstands when the heavy equipment comes rumbling.

What I will call "thrill factor" considerations would encourage us to utilize scenic pieces of the property.  Mountain peaks as backdrops, vicious cross hazards, skyline greens, etc...

....but Pat Mucci would say I am designing "in a vacuum" here, and he would be completely correct, just as any exercise in designing a "virtual" course is doomed to never fully equate to the real thing.

I feel badly about biting off Mike Young's head earlier this evening.  I'm sorry, Mike, please forgive me.  I can well imagine the golf course development industry is something unlike any we gcaers can imagine.  Long Shadow looks sweet, I hope to play it someday.  

I love Paul's idea of 50 gcaers contributing to the design of a course.  That'd be fun.  I think I am winning the competition for "latest post" this night.  Four AM.....where are the Brits???

[TEPaul]

"Most gca's over time build easier and easier courses, realizing that we already have enough US Open venues in this country, and seeing how average players who foot the bill do on tough designs. (That may be part of TEPaul's formulaic remarks)"

Jeff:

I wouldn't be too sure about that. Formulaics also may be leading to too many difficult courses for average players. As always, the world of golf probably needs an appropriate quantity of both sides of the spectrum.

[Mike Golden]

Since the question was 'do you think you could design a decent golf course' not 'do you think you could design and build a decent golf course' I think the answer for most of us is unequivocally 'Yes'.


I didn't mean on paper, I meant "IN THE GROUND"[/color]

de·sign (dĭ-zîn')

v., -signed, -sign·ing, -signs.

v.tr.

To conceive or fashion in the mind; invent: design a good excuse for not attending the conference.
To formulate a plan for; devise: designed a marketing strategy for the new product.
To plan out in systematic, usually graphic form: design a building; design a computer program.
To create or contrive for a particular purpose or effect: a game designed to appeal to all ages.
To have as a goal or purpose; intend.
To create or execute in an artistic or highly skilled manner.

Same old Patrick, why not make a complete statement upfront instead of leaving things open to interpretation in order to criticize?  And, of course, leave out my disclaimer that I would have no chance to bring any preliminary design to completion without the advice of experts.  

None of us is capable of building a decent golf course without years of training, it's the same as asking someone if they could build a decent automobile and including the tooling and manufacturing process as part of the requirement.

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