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TEPaul

Re:Do you think you could design a decent golf course ?
« Reply #25 on: September 14, 2007, 08:20:22 AM »
I think i could design some "concept" and that's what I like to stick to anyway.

But when that "concept" gets considered and perhaps starts to hit the ground it's just amazing the things you learn and realize that you don't know about construction and all the obstacles that come with construction architecture.

But I'm a real minimalist in heart and mind for a pretty simple reason---eg I just don't have the experience and resulting imagination to visualize what all machinery can do with the land.

And to be honest with you-all, I'd just as soon keep it that way.  ;)

The other thing I've learned is just how quickly architects seem to throw a bunker at almost any conceptual/architectural issue.

Sand bunkers are the ultimate over-all industry wide "comfort-blanket", in my opinion.
« Last Edit: September 14, 2007, 08:24:26 AM by TEPaul »

Lloyd_Cole

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Do you think you could design a decent golf course ?
« Reply #26 on: September 14, 2007, 08:30:18 AM »
Is there anything in the world that a first-timer can do as well as a knowledgeable professional?


Many a musician makes his biggest impression debuting. It may be, that as a gca, one has a wealth of ideas waiting to be used. Inevitably one will use the best of these on the first project.
A first timer has wide eyes and, usually, no cynicism. These can be huge advantages against the experienced pro. He is also apt to ask 'Why not?' when told that his idea cannot be executed, and then liable to argue the case for trying.
I know a lot more today, about gca, than I did about music production in 1984. So, If were to have experienced course builders who were willing to work with me, I say yes.

Having walked various sand belt courses with Mike Clayton and discussed his plans for improving them, and, having seen the results of his work - I am sure of one thing - given the go ahead to remove 50 trees, I could improve my home course by at least one on the Doak scale, probably from a 1 to a 2. Given free reign, I think I could get it to a 3.

« Last Edit: September 14, 2007, 08:36:12 AM by Lloyd_Cole »

David Whitmer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Do you think you could design a decent golf course ?
« Reply #27 on: September 14, 2007, 08:37:17 AM »
I think I would be able to design a decent course on paper; I can draw out a nice variety of par 3s, par 4s, and par 5s with the best of them...heck, what do you think kept me awake during school? However, I am quite sure that, if given a piece of land, I would step back, have a deer-in-the-headlights look, and wonder, "Where in the world do I start?"

My answer to the question is: if I was given experts (drainage, environmental, etc.) to work with, I may be able to pull off a decent course. If it was just up to me, I don't like my chances.

Bruce Katona

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Do you think you could design a decent golf course ?
« Reply #28 on: September 14, 2007, 09:05:40 AM »
yes.....the techinical side, given my background will be fine....no puddles. proper site lines,grass will grow, many pinnable spots on each green..

on the playability side, given an adequate size parcel of land, will be fine....wide fairways, multiple lines of attack for all types of golfers (I would prefer an open side for each green to allow the avergae/poor player an chance to run the ball up on the green.

maintenance nightmare....no...playability and ease of mainetenance are what would make it financially successful.

a top 100....no, but a fun place for everyone to play.

TEPaul

Re:Do you think you could design a decent golf course ?
« Reply #29 on: September 14, 2007, 09:11:46 AM »
I'll tell you one thing I've become perhaps the best in the world at with golf course architecture.

That would be surreptiously moving "off-limits" environmental stakes. And if I see one of them chartreusse-tailed snails-----MASH with the boot.

The other day I was fixing on blowing away an EPA guy with my .45 but on reflection i thought that might be a bit much.

On the other hand, they may let me try out one of those bulldozers and I can tell you if I do I wouldn't recommend that EPA guy come anywhere near me unless he wants to become a green contour.

Adrian_Stiff

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Do you think you could design a decent golf course ?
« Reply #30 on: September 14, 2007, 09:31:39 AM »
I am suprised many of you are frightened about drainage. It's not rocket science and pretty much straight logic.
A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
The Players Club, Cumberwell Park, The Kendleshire, Oake Manor, Dainton Park, Forest Hills, Erlestoke, St Cleres.
www.theplayersgolfclub.com

Jerry Kluger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Do you think you could design a decent golf course ?
« Reply #31 on: September 14, 2007, 09:36:21 AM »
Now that's a funny question.  If GCA has taught me anything, it is how little I know about designing and building a golf course.  It has taught me to appreciate good architecture but that doesn't make me qualified to design a golf course.  It would be great fun though to be a fly on the wall during the design and construction of a course.

Tom Huckaby

Re:Do you think you could design a decent golf course ?
« Reply #32 on: September 14, 2007, 10:19:39 AM »
As is often the case, Tom Doak nailed this.

I'd guess at least 1495 out of the 1500 participants here could draft a fine enough course - ON PAPER.

The number shrinks to less than 10 who could get it done in the dirt, making it viable and commercially successful.

TH

Dan Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Do you think you could design a decent golf course ?
« Reply #33 on: September 14, 2007, 10:40:23 AM »
As is often the case, Tom Doak nailed this.

I'd guess at least 1495 out of the 1500 participants here could draft a fine enough course - ON PAPER.

The number shrinks to less than 10 who could get it done in the dirt, making it viable and commercially successful.

TH

I doubt it -- on both counts. (I KNOW that I couldn't design a good course on paper. My mind doesn't work that way; I look at a topographical map, and all I can see is David Levine's caricature of Justice William O. Douglas. But could I find a good course, with my eyes and my feet, on actual good land, with some expert help re: drainage and agronomy? I would guess yes -- but likely will never know.)

Personally, I think Gib nailed it. (And Rihc nailed Tom I. LOL.)
"There's no money in doing less." -- Joe Hancock, 11/25/2010
"Rankings are silly and subjective..." -- Tom Doak, 3/12/2016

TaylorA

Re:Do you think you could design a decent golf course ?
« Reply #34 on: September 14, 2007, 10:52:23 AM »
I am suprised many of you are frightened about drainage. It's not rocket science and pretty much straight logic.

If it were so simple, so many golf courses wouldn't suffer from bird baths and other drainage problems.

I'm sure I could design a decent golf course because of my civil engineering, land planning, surveying and turf science background. (This, I hope, isn't viewed as bragging since Patrick followed the question with "Why?") I also have extensive background in permitting land development projects on local, state and federal levels. That means my design would likely take into account the constraints posed by wetlands, waters of the state, waters of the U.S. and other environmental hurdles along with development regulations and other laws and ordinances.

Where I'd suffer is where Tom Doak mentioned. While I have some field experience in construction and do make site visits for my projects to solve problems in the field, I'll be the first to admit that my knowledge of building golf courses, and general land development construction, is poor. That's where a golf course I design is going to suffer, turning a golf course that might be "great" to just "decent".

Like just about anything, though, there are lots of people involved that can turn a decent golf course into a great golf course and vice-a-versa. There are a lot of people are involved in the design of a golf course - not just the architect. I'd certainly lean on a number of professionals were I to design a course.

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Do you think you could design a decent golf course ?
« Reply #35 on: September 14, 2007, 10:52:44 AM »
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Tom Huckaby

Re:Do you think you could design a decent golf course ?
« Reply #36 on: September 14, 2007, 10:56:10 AM »
As is often the case, Tom Doak nailed this.

I'd guess at least 1495 out of the 1500 participants here could draft a fine enough course - ON PAPER.

The number shrinks to less than 10 who could get it done in the dirt, making it viable and commercially successful.

TH

I doubt it -- on both counts. (I KNOW that I couldn't design a good course on paper. My mind doesn't work that way; I look at a topographical map, and all I can see is David Levine's caricature of Justice William O. Douglas. But could I find a good course, with my eyes and my feet, on actual good land, with some expert help re: drainage and agronomy? I would guess yes -- but likely will never know.)

Personally, I think Gib nailed it. (And Rihc nailed Tom I. LOL.)

OK, so I exaggerated.  My point is this:  many could design a decent course on paper, very very few could make it happen in the dirt.  Disagree?

And on that basic point Tom Doak did nail it.  Gib did nail why this is so and how it would work in the real world.

TH


George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Do you think you could design a decent golf course ?
« Reply #37 on: September 14, 2007, 11:02:35 AM »
Didn't read anyone else's responses yet.

I think I could design something that would make the Doak Scale, probably way on the low end, but it probably wouldn't drain properly and the grass probably wouldn't grow.

 :)

Now on to read the others' responses.
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Tom Huckaby

Re:Do you think you could design a decent golf course ?
« Reply #38 on: September 14, 2007, 11:09:00 AM »
George just nailed it, in perfect simplicity and brevity.

No need to read any others, my friend.

 ;D

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Do you think you could design a decent golf course ?
« Reply #39 on: September 14, 2007, 11:14:47 AM »
Didn't read anyone else's responses yet.

I think I could design something that would make the Doak Scale, probably way on the low end, but it probably wouldn't drain properly and the grass probably wouldn't grow.

 :)

Now on to read the others' responses.

George,

You do know he gives 0s don't you?
 ;D
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Adrian_Stiff

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Do you think you could design a decent golf course ?
« Reply #40 on: September 14, 2007, 11:20:16 AM »
Taylor- Its often the budgets that cause the problems rather than drainage design. Water movement has not changed for millions of years and is unlikely too, the principles are fairly simple and the more drainage that is implemented the better, but there are other over riding factors, like a good sandy soil where you may need no artificial drainage, at the opposite end some soils could be so poor where virtually no amount of drainage will get you a dry site with heavy rain. Soil studies need not be the immediate concern whether you can design a good golf course or not, with big budgets much (but not all) can be conquered.
A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
The Players Club, Cumberwell Park, The Kendleshire, Oake Manor, Dainton Park, Forest Hills, Erlestoke, St Cleres.
www.theplayersgolfclub.com

TEPaul

Re:Do you think you could design a decent golf course ?
« Reply #41 on: September 14, 2007, 11:22:09 AM »
"(I KNOW that I couldn't design a good course on paper. My mind doesn't work that way; I look at a topographical map, and all I can see is David Levine's caricature of Justice William O. Douglas. But could I find a good course, with my eyes and my feet, on actual good land, with some expert help re: drainage and agronomy? I would guess yes -- but likely will never know.)"

DanK:

In my opinion, I don't think it's totally necessary to design a golf course on paper. If you can design a good course on the ground you can design a good course---period.

Who the hell ever plays a golf course on paper anyway?  ;)

On the other hand, the guys who can pretty much totally visualize all the nuances and ramifications of land on paper (topo) before ever seeing the land in person are pretty amazing in my book. Doak happens to have that facility in spades apparently. He designed the routing on Sebonak on paper (topo) before he ever saw the place.

If I tried to do something like that you'd have the worst use of good land in the history of golf course architecture.

On the other hand, there is this old adage in golf course architecture that if you want something like a truly cool and random green or whatever, just go get the village idiot and get him to do it for you.

I think i good fit that bill pretty nicely.
« Last Edit: September 14, 2007, 11:23:54 AM by TEPaul »

Michael J. Moss

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Do you think you could design a decent golf course ?
« Reply #42 on: September 14, 2007, 11:30:21 AM »
Topos schmopos!

All I need is a 900 acre property chock full of interesting land features, a little elevation change and I'll find 18 terrific holes. All you will need is a golf cart! and plenty of gas.

Add the stipulation that the course has to be walkable and those who say they can route a decent golf course goes way down. That little condition separates the architects from the posers.

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Do you think you could design a decent golf course ?
« Reply #43 on: September 14, 2007, 11:35:24 AM »
Even for the pros here, I think we are like hitters or golfers - yeah we've done it in the past, but are we in for a slump?

As to the ams here, I would say on half the projects I do, someone connected with it brings me their routing.  Only a few have been any good at all, and then only marginally, ignoring lots of basics (don't put greens in deep valleys where they get no sun, will flood, etc., or holes blind over the tops of hills, too close together, too sharp a dogleg, etc.

You don't know what you don't know.  And, in your zeal to do something different, you would probably do something really bad that someone else tried and rebuilt later!

Most mention routing, but as Tom D says, feature design aint really easy either. Even if you know you want a Redan, or even just a bunker on the right side of the green, getting the depth, visual scale, etc. right takes a lot of artistic talent and experience.

Basically, most of you think of gca only on a conceptual level, as TEPaul says, but have no ability to translate those concepts to reality. If you add in the time factor (like the owner, or even you as gca would want this thing built in your lifetime!) then you really have little chance.

Short answer:

Me: yes
You: no.*

*There could be exceptions to prove the rule, however!
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Mike Golden

Re:Do you think you could design a decent golf course ?
« Reply #44 on: September 14, 2007, 11:37:13 AM »
Since the question was 'do you think you could design a decent golf course' not 'do you think you could design and build a decent golf course' I think the answer for most of us is unequivocally 'Yes'.

As for me, I am confident that, given a piece of property, I could walk the ground and find, as Bill Coore, says 'some golf out there'.  I am also confident that, without an experienced staff of expert, that I would have no chance of bringing the design to fruition.

My design process would be very straighforward-walk the property (I can't visualize anything from topo maps even though I have many years of engineering experience), find as many natural greensites as possible and lay out holes that make for interesting shots to those greensites. After that it is a matter of developing a routing that adds the remaining holes in a sequence that makes some reasonable sense.

There is no way I could ever create a golf course that would come close to the efforts of a trained, experienced professional but I could guarantee that at least some of the golf course would have really interesting shot values that would challenge golfers of all skill levels.  If that is the equivalent of a decent golf course then my 'Yes' above has been validated.

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Do you think you could design a decent golf course ?
« Reply #45 on: September 14, 2007, 11:44:51 AM »
...ignoring lots of basics (don't put greens in deep valleys where they get no sun, will flood, etc., or holes blind over the tops of hills,...

Guess we should be glad the Dell Hole got designed before there were rules!
 ;D
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Do you think you could design a decent golf course ?
« Reply #46 on: September 14, 2007, 11:52:34 AM »
George,

You do know he gives 0s don't you?
 ;D

I'm countin' on it.
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

TEPaul

Re:Do you think you could design a decent golf course ?
« Reply #47 on: September 14, 2007, 12:03:03 PM »
Garland:

You make a good point there.

I mean it can be some pretty tricky shit to try to place a green in a real valley or bowl the way they used to do way back when. What the hell else were they going to do when they had no artificial irrigation? ;)

The problems that resulted with agronomy and playability with things like true bowl and valley greens back then were obviously real and constant compared to today but back then golf wasn't expected to be that much more than the rough and tumble game it was in those days.

I think JeffB is completely right that most all of us who are not in the business day in and day out really do lack a ton of knowledge on the technical side like some construction and drainage techniques but I feel some of these professional architects need input from people like us on the conceptual side. And the reason I feel that way is too many of them (not all but a whole lot) just have gotten too formulaic and standardized in the things they come up with conceptually.

And if they have gotten that way why have they gotten that way?

It's a good question but something tells me they are a bit too gun-shy about pushing the envelop and taking some conceptual risks (even if its going back to some of the old concepts like blindness and such) because they're just too concerned about getting criticized for it.

Back in the Golden Age there were not so many preconceptions from so many golfers about what should be and what shouldn't be as there is today.

So with conceptual input I think plenty of professionals need us for various ideas.

However, even with those fresh conceptual ideas it really does get to be a matter of them sometimes needing to explain to us why some of our concepts are "no-can-dos" on the technical side.

But for us I think that's the fun of it and it certainly is an education in that vein.

But the thing I resist and think is actually pretty funny is how and how often these professional architects seems to try to imply that you have to be a professional FIRST to come up with interesting conceptual ideas in architecture.

I don't believe that at all. I think it's very true on the technical side but not on the conceptual side.
« Last Edit: September 14, 2007, 12:06:07 PM by TEPaul »

Jerry Lemons

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Do you think you could design a decent golf course ?
« Reply #48 on: September 14, 2007, 12:05:25 PM »

You don't know what you don't know.  And, in your zeal to do something different, you would probably do something really bad that someone else tried and rebuilt later!


*There could be exceptions to prove the rule, however!

Jeff you nailed it. I think most arms on this site would force favorite  holes and the holes  just wouldnt work with the turf, drainage, routing and so many more dicipline which make this proffesion look easier than it is.

I would say most would give up after rejection of the first permit with government agencies ;) Some just do not like golf.

I'm like Jeff, I can you might but unless you have some special training and experience, you won't do it right the first time.
Times flys and your the pilot !

TEPaul

Re:Do you think you could design a decent golf course ?
« Reply #49 on: September 14, 2007, 12:10:14 PM »
"You don't know what you don't know."

JeffB:

What I consider to be perhaps the best architect today actually constantly uses a version of that adage as one of his operating principles----eg "to always remember to know what you don't know".

In my opinion, if he actually uses that adage constantly I would pretty much suspect the rest of you should too.  ;)
« Last Edit: September 14, 2007, 12:11:05 PM by TEPaul »

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