[ed_getka]

Mark,
   I haven't met you so I will assume you are kidding and these are just tongue-in-cheek responses.

[ed_getka]

Mark,
   What would your non-financial inducement ranking be for the top ten courses in NZ in your opinion?

[Mark_Guiniven]

Ed,
I just want New Zealanders to ask themselves "is Sir Bob Charles really a good judge of a golf course?" before they place any weight on his opinion. Being a good player and having had the opportunity to play all the best courses doesn't guarantee you an appreciation of them. He has been involved with numerous courses here since Millbrook in 1989 and none have received acclaim of any kind. I cannot think of any other field where such an unbroken run of failure has gone unquestioned by the media.

My top 10?
#1: Cape Kidnappers.
All others: Must try harder.

[Mike_Clayton]

Mark G

How is the condition of Paraparaumu these days?

I hear its a lot better but without seeing it its hard to tell.

You obvously have good judgement!

[Mark_Guiniven]

Mike,
The club has posted its proposed course policy document online so I have to assume they don't mind it being viewed publicly. You may like to read the pdf. I suppose all the right noises are being made, but like you said years ago the implementation's the hard part.

As far as the greens are concerned, I haven't noticed a significant increase in browntop yet. I don't know what the plan is. The fairways have recently been overseeded with fescue which was a no brainer. Fairways like 4, 7, 8, 13 and 17 have always had wonderful fescue colonies in places. Leo knows what to look for and is trying to cover more of the course with it. Gordon Irvine has been advising him on rye grass removal.

All the bare patches just outside the fairway/rough margins have undergone repair, the soil amended and areas sown in fescue. I don't know what happened but a lot of poa established itself in these areas but hopefully it will burn off as summer comes on. I hope the fairways receive a fairly generous widening after that, with new mowing lines. I've been told someone in officialdom is against the idea of merging fairways like 3 & 4 and 13 & 15. What would you say to them?

Scott and I had Greg Ramsay here at the beginning of the month, so I'm sure he will have some more thoughts for you at some stage. You may like to know your beloved poplars beside the 5th tee have been removed. There's actually a hell of a tee back there at 204m, but I fear the more coddled among your professional brethren would lodge a protest.

[ed_getka]

Mark,
   Thanks for the clarification regarding Bob Charles. I haven't seen any of his work so I had no idea about the free pass he gets from the golf media.
Out of curiosity, where would you put Titirangi if it had more interesting greens. I was impressed by the quality of the land and the routing there, but the greens and surrounds were lacking on most holes.
   CK is certainly a great golf course so I can't quibble with your choice of #1 given my limited exposure to NZ golf.

[Grant Saunders]

"Grant,
    What are they going to be doing to Titirangi that will improve it so much in your opinion?"

Ed

Sorry it has taken a while to reply on this.

I am of the opinion that Titirangi will reach this status partly by the fact they are doing excellent work and partly for the reason that other courses are not.

There is a real trend within NZ at the moment to redo/remodel supposedly "out of date courses".
Titirangi was in fact one of the leaders of this movement.
The main thing that sets titirangi apart is the time frame with which they are carrying out the work. They have set out to do 1 or 2 holes per year and really focus on getting them right. Many of the other courses have opted for the fast track approach and are attempting as many as up to nine holes per year as is the case of one course that I am aware of. Overall, I am against the reasoning behind this overhaul of courses. These are members courses with a high portion of older members who simply play for the enjoyment of it.

In short, Titirangi will get there as others fall away. Please dont read this as detracting from the work they are doing there, as I feel that they are the closest to getting it right.

NZ has the highest number of courses per head of population in the world. Unfortunately, very few of these register on the international stage which is a shame considering the quality of the land found in these parts.

If Ash Towe is reading this, I am curious as to if he had seen Huapai prior to the redevelopment and the current state of affairs.

[ed_getka]

Grant,
   Ash is here in California right now. I'll let him know you have a question when I see him tomorrow.

[Mike_Clayton]

Mark,

Widening the fairways at 3 and 4 and 13 and 15??

I would tell them to try it and see how they like it.
The poor angles at 3 and 4 and the blind shots that players would encounter if the ball ran further from from the ideal spot would not make the holes that much easier - which,I assume,is the issue of those against.

[Ash Towe]

Hi Grant,
I am still in California.  I had not seen Huapai prior to the changes and do not now its current state.
The report on my trip I will do when t get home this weekend- Thats a promise guys.

[ed_getka]

bump

[Ian Andrew]

Mike,

I respect your opinion a lot and would like to see your own best 10, or better yet a list of the essentials to see on a trip to NZ.

Ian

[Tom_Doak]

Sir Bob did tell me that after seeing Cape Kidnappers again in the Kiwi Challenge, he should have rated it above Kauri Cliffs.  But, then again, Mr. Robertson had probably paid him to come visit. 

[Mike_Clayton]

Ian,

Of the courses I have played in NZ I would say the must-see courses are Kidnappers,Paraparaumu and Titirangi.
Having said that I have not seen Titirangi for 20 years but it had some holes realy worth seeing.
I have not seen Oreti Sands which Turner tells me is terrific.

Its a good quick golf stop over on the way to Australia. The scenery on the other hand is spectacular - especially the South Island.

[Matthew Mollica]

Ash,

It seems amazing that Turner is the only one to rate Paraparaumu and Kidnappers as one and two.

My thoughts exactly.

Not sure which is the better course, but CK is far and away the better experience.

Interesting to see Greg Turner's responses when he's finally played Kauri Cliffs (I assume he hasn't as I doubt he'd play it and rate it at #26 or lower...)

I'm over to see the in-laws for Christmas next week, and will go check out Gulf Harbour again. Seems they're building more houses there by the day...

Ian - I'd go to Titirangi. It's worth a look. Some fun holes there. I've done a review of it for GCA which shouldn't be too hard to find.

MM

[Grant Saunders]

Mathew

I wouldnt be in any great hurry to spend time at gulf harbour. The course is now owned by the membership and they have been forced to instigate some fairly hefty budget cuts on the course. They have slashed the course staff number in half. Also, as you commented, most holes now have housing bordering them and the effect is incredibly claustrophobic.

You would be much better to head up north to either Waipu (about 1.5 hours north of gulf harbour) Mangawhai (about 45 minutes north) or my personal pick would be to go south to Hamilton and play either Lochiel or Hamilton golf club which are about 2 hours south of gulf harbour.

You should see if Ash Towe is around at the time for a game. I will be in Auckland next week but I dont think I will get any time for golf.

[Ash Towe]

I think Kinloch in Taupo is a must play.  Some people love it others are not so keen.  It is not far from Wairakei which is another must play.  From Taupo it is only a couple of hours from CK.

[Tom_Doak]

Ian:

If you are going to do a New Zealand-only trip, I would recommend playing Titirangi, Kinloch (though I haven't seen it), Rotorua, Cape Kidnappers, and Paraparaumu in the North Island, and Arrowtown and Chisholm Park in the South Island.  There is another little "sheep ranch" nine-holer down near Cape K. which my crew loved ... I'll get the name for you.  The only one where I really disagree with Ash is Wairakei, which is eminently skippable in my book.

If you want to go to Kauri Cliffs, you should also go and check out Kaitaia which is a links course not that far away.  I've never been there, but Ran once rated it highly.

P.S.  Anybody who goes to New Zealand and plays golf more than half the days is misguided.

[Ash Towe]

Tom,
Have you seen the changes that the present owners have made?
They have significantly lifted the presentation of the course.
Whilst from a gca point of view it is not the most stimulating, it is a beautiful kiwi property that many people enjoy.

[Ian Andrew]

Mike and Tom,

Thanks for the list.

I've been wanting to see New Zealand for a long time - with a couple of golf games thrown in for good measure.

[Tom_Doak]

Ash:

No, I haven't been back to Wairakei since 1988 ... although Bruce Hepner and I drove right by it when we were fogged in at the airport in Auckland a few months ago.  Maybe I should have stopped, but it still looked pretty overgrown to me.

[Scott Coan]

The re-emergence of this thread is an excellent opportunity to introduce all of you to the redevelopment of Paraparaumu Beach Golf Club's website:   

http://www.paraparaumubeachgolfclub.co.nz

The course has gone through a real renaissance over the last few years and continues to get better and better (full disclosure - I am a member).  Leo Barber took over as Superintendent a few years back and has made great strides in returning this classic links to it's roots.  He has turned down the the water, cut down the rough, encouraged the native grasses, cut down some silly trees (more to go in my opinion!), firmed up the greens and surrounds (and the entire course), and really improved the playability and overall enjoyment of the course.     

I've just come back from a weekend stay at Cape Kidnappers and these 2 courses are certainly numbers 1 and 1A in New Zealand.  As much as I enjoy the challenge and beauty of playing Kidnappers I am always very happy to come back to good ole Pram Beach.  They are really entirely different animals.  If you are not on your game CK can really beat you down and leave you feeling a bit depressed about your game.  PB can do the same but in a much more subtle way.

The greens complexes at CK continue to amaze me.  It is always fun to watch really good players completely misread a putt or chip and watch it roll completely off the green.  I keep telling myself that one day I have to just drop a ball 100 yards from each green at CK and see what I score.  I guarantee I would not break par and more than likely would be about +5.  I think it would be about the same for most amateurs.

Having said that, if I had 10 games to divvy up I would play 6 at Pram Beach and 4 at Kidnappers and in a head-to-head match play scenario the courses come out even in my book.

1 CK
2 PB
3 PB
4 CK
5 PB
6 CK
7 CK
8 PB
9 CK

10 PB
11 PB       
12 CK
13 PB
14 CK
15 CK
16 PB
17 PB
18 CK

[Scott Macpherson]

Kia Ora,


Scott,

Interesting to see your chart. In terms of 'learning to play golf', I learnt my golf at PBGC, and in my heart still consider it my home course (even though I gave up my membership a few years ago when it appeared my new home would be Scotland and not the Kapiti coast!!)

Maybe the only hole I would suggest you reconsider ranking is the 15th- which I think is a great links hole and a key hole in the home sequence. The blind tee shot adds to this hole in my opinion, but the strength of the hole is the green design.


Tom D,

Wairakei was renovated by Thomson, Wolveridge and Perrett in 1997 and this considerably improved the course. Bob Shearer spear-headed the on-site changes and I did my best to assist (though in hindsight, I wonder if I did more to distract???)

I should have strong thoughts on what are my best '25 courses in NZ', but for some reason I don't. I hope Millbrook will move up the rankings though when the new holes open in 2009.

 

[Scott Coan]

Maybe the only hole I would suggest you reconsider ranking is the 15th- which I think is a great links hole and a key hole in the home sequence. The blind tee shot adds to this hole in my opinion, but the strength of the hole is the green design.

Hey Scott,

Totally agree with you in regards to Pram Beach's 15th as I also think it's a great hole but the 15th at Kidnappers (600m Pirate's Plank) is other wordly to me.  To make par there you have made 3 or 4 really good ball strikes.  The simplicity, scenery, and danger make that hole the highlight of my round at CK. 

Head-to-head match-ups are always a bit dubious (but fun still).  The 17th at Kidnappers is one of the best on that course but it still can't compete against PB's 17th which is one of the very best par 4's in the world.  They are actually so very similar that I wonder if Tom D. had PB's 17th in mind...

PS - I play with a few of the boys that were around when you were at PBGC.  Great place to learn the game!

Cheers

[Ash Towe]

Ian,
Let me know when you come.  I will be happy to help in any way I can.

Scott, Great news re Paraparaumu.  It would be terrific  to see it back to its best.
Have you played Kinloch?  Be interested in your opinion.

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