[Scott Coan]

Scott, Great news re Paraparaumu.  It would be terrific  to see it back to its best.
Have you played Kinloch?  Be interested in your opinion.

Hi Ash,

I have played Kinloch but only twice around the 11 holes when they first opened (1-10 & 18).  Wish I could still hit Jack's towering 220 yard cut 3 irons as that seemed like the only way onto some of the greens as they were all so powerfully bunkered (sadly I rarely can hit that shot anymore!).  Really loved the split fairway par-5 although can't remember the hole#.  Mates of mine at Pram Beach have played the full course multiple times and they all reckon the back nine is even better than the front.  They even rate it better than Kidnappers but I would not from my one play.

We walked it on the day and found it really hard on the feet.  All the walks between green and tee are quite long and via very hard concrete paths.  After our first 11 holes we sat down for some lunch and I swear it felt like I had already played a full 18.  Was absolutely buggered after 22 holes! (although that may have had something to do with staying out till 3am the night before...)

Glad it's under new ownership as at one point this year they had cows roaming the rough instead of mowers.  A friend of mine has a beach house in the village so will definitely get up there this year to have a look at the full course.

Cheers,
Scott

[Ash Towe]

Hi Scott,
Thanks for your last post.  I have only played there once about 11 months ago.  I was really impressed but then i tend to be on a first play.  Going to try getting there again in January.
The walks between greens and tees are long.  Not something we are used to in NZ.  The walk up the ninth fairway is also a good test for the lungs.
It is interesting to see the course is rated because it does not have the wow factor that Kauri Cliffs and Cape Kidnappers have.
People have also to pick the right tees.  It is a big test from the back but the next set plays 800 metres shorter.
It will be good to have some firmer views after the next visit.
Good luck with your home course and congrats on the changes.

[Mike_Duffy]

I have only just discovered this thread over the holiday period. I can't believe that the abomination that is Millbrook would feature in any compilation of New Zealand's top 25 courses. There are some other oddities as well;

1. Miramar (Wellington) used to be a top track up to the late 1950s when a lot of its land was acquired for the adjacent airport extension. In my opinion it is so hacked to pieces it shouldn't even rate a mention.

2. Titirangi I remember from my last visitation as being infested with trees. In some respects I can't even believe that it was designed by Dr Mac.

3. Wairakei. Designed if I remember rightly by Cmdr. Harris who used to work for Thomson. Financed by the NZ Tourism Commission on a tight budget, and boy does it show. Some interesting holes, but top 25? Not in my book.

4. For those of you with long memories and who were members of Golfweb and/or Traditional Golf forums back in the last century, you may recall my treatise on Oreti Sands, whereby I played there for two consecutive days and did not see one other person on the golf course. This is one of the most enjoyable golf courses I have played anywhere. Short by today's bombing standards, it nevertheless provided me with two days of almost total bliss. It is situated on the coast about 20 minutes drive outside of Invercargill. It surely must be the most southerly golf course in the world and what a beauty!

5. Formosa: Another sad design, with red bridges, water everywhere, flat bunkers, flash clubhouse and Taiwanese money. Whenever I see a flash clubhouse in Oz or NZ I generally find a pretty ordinary golf course tacked on to it.

6. Paraparaumu. Yes, a very good golf course, but if the wind doesn't blow off the nearby sea, the old girl is ready for the taking - but worthy of its popular ranking

7. The worst golf course that I have played in NZ would have to be Titahi Bay (just outside of Wellington), where the locals will proudly point to the honours board where the name of Michael Campbell features prominently. No wonder he turned out to be such a good golfer, for if one can get around that sheep track in a reasonable number, then other courses would seem like heaven.

8. Balmacewan in Dunedin is about as miserable as the city itself. It wouldn't feature on my radar, but it would seem that many others like it - for what reason it is hard to fathom.

Having said all of that, I could be enticed to play some the ones I dislike, over the outlandish modern designs that one is offered in Bangkok and its environs where I sit and pine for the Melbourne Sand Belt.
New Year's greetings to everyone.

 

[Mike_Clayton]

Mike,

Intersting you say that about Titirangi.
I have not seen it for more than 15 years but I was talking to Phil Taturangi a few weeks ago.
He had spoken to the committee - or only perhaps someone on it - and mantioned what a great course it would be if they cut all the trees down.
The Wrecker - we played it as the 6th - would be an amazing looking hole of you could see all the way to the green from the tee.

[Mike_Duffy]

Michael,
Nice to hear from you, and from the Sand Belt as well!!!

It would have to be 10 years since I played at Titirangi and I recakk that Tommy Naccarato nearly keeled over when I told him that a Dr Mac course was infested with trees. Mackenzie, I believe, would not have included so much flora in his design, so over the years the club has gradually let this course turn into a miniature forest, which is a pity, because if it was cleaned up it would be a very good golf course once again.

There are some interesting selections on the NZ compilation, so I'm guessing some of the courses have improved out of sight since I last played them, or am I falling for the trap of comparing the NZ courses to Melbourne???

[Grant Saunders]

Mike

In your opinion, what courses should then feature on the top 25 list?

 You do a good job of slashing courses from other peoples lists yet dont offer anything in the way of replacements with the exception of a nod towards Oreti and Paraparaumu.

I would love to hear what you consider then to be the best on offer down here.

[Ash Towe]

Titirangi has undertaken a substantial restoration programme for the last 5-8 years under the guidance of Chris Pittman.  Many trees have been taken down and the course has certainley been 'opened up'.
I do not know what other improvements are going to be undertaken but what they have done so far generally has been very good.

[Tom_Doak]

Mike Duffy:

Nice to see your name back on the  board!

The history of Titirangi is pretty well documented ... Dr. MacKenzie came through and did his routing and then the club secretary was left to get the thing built.  No Alex Russell, no Morcoms, not so great.

I've seen some slides of the revisions which seemed to be designed to "Mackenzie up" the course; the one hole I saw looked like the answer to the question "What if MacKenzie had had a D-7?"  It certainly wasn't a restoration to its original form, but then again, its original form never lived up to its billing.

They had the MacKenzie Cup at Titirangi about 2 months ago, but I haven't talked to Fred Muller about what he thought of the course ... he used to go and play down there nearly every winter 20 years ago.

[Mike_Clayton]

Grant,

I am not sure I have slashed any courses from anybody's list.-but anybody who rates Kidnappers as the 10th best course in NZ has his eyes painted on.
I have not seen enough of the non-tournament courses to make an informed list.

How many NZ courses would make a top 25 list of Australian courses? Top 50?

[Mike_Duffy]

Mike

In your opinion, what courses should then feature on the top 25 list?

 You do a good job of slashing courses from other peoples lists yet dont offer anything in the way of replacements with the exception of a nod towards Oreti and Paraparaumu.

I would love to hear what you consider then to be the best on offer down here.

Grant,

Whilst it is quite a number of years now since I worked in NZ, I really had to put in my five cents worth regarding the courses as I remember them.

It would be imprudent of me to name 25 courses in NZ when I haven't played any of the new ones.

However, I will pen some that I have happy memories of playing, and whilst they might not have the accolade "great" bestowed" upon them, they get the nearest award that of "highly enjoyable".

Apart from the aforementioned Paraparaumu and Oreti Sands, others that I derived pleasure from playing in no particular order are:

Ngamotu (what a lovely golf course!) my partner exclaimed when she first saw it.
Bridge Pa. A good test of golf, albeit that it always seemed to be crowded whenever I played there.
Auckland Golf Club - another good test of golf.
Heretaunga out in the Hutt Valley. It used to get very boggy in winter, but I guess that perennial problem has now been rectified.
Gisborne. I can't remember the name of the golf club, but it was a cut above the other provincial courses in NZ.
In the South Island, Shirley and Russley in Christchurch, probably the premier courses of the "mainland".
Queenstown: Kelvin Heights around that beautiful lake. Sir Bob should have had a look at that one before firing up the 9-Cat and ploughing up the pasture land that became Millbrook.

There is another one that I used to play, a real links layout on the West Coast(?) of Auckland. Can't remember the name now as it is so long ago, but I had several enjoyable outings there. I have fond memories of that track.

About 35 years ago, Terry MacLean, then the most prominent sports journalist in NZ, said he was of the opinion that NZ golf courses were laid out on "shoestring Presbyterian budgets" and as a consequence the country had very few good golf courses to display to the visitor.

I have often thought about Terry's remarks, and I believe he had a good point. It would now seem, from the above threads that some money is at last being spent on some new - and hopefully - well designed golf courses in the Land Of The Long White Cloud.

Finally, I mentioned Titahi Bay as the worst course that I played whilst living there, but my wife reminded me of another one. Is there a course outside of Wellington Called New Judgment or Jugford something similar? Yes, we haven't forgotten that place either, but for all the wrong reasons.

Obviously I haven't played Kauri Cliffs, or Cape Kidnappers or some of the other new courses, so putting a list together of 25 would seem pointless, but some of the ones mentioned in the lists must have improved out of sight to what they were like between 15-35 years ago.

Finally, I'm happy to learn that Titirangi is being cleaned up. Terry McLean used to rate that as his favourite course in NZ - but there again - he was an Aucklander!!!!!

[Mike_Duffy]

To Tom Doak.

Yes Tom, its been quite a while. Back in Melbourne at the present time on leave so I have a little time to look at this board now and then.

Thanks for the info re Titirangi - I always felt that there was something amiss with that layout when it had the nomenclature of Mackenzie attached to it. Your explanation has now crystalised my opinion of the course.

I don't know if you are aware of this Tom, but Heretaunga in the Hutt Valley used to claim that it was a Mackenzie-designed course. I derived a degree of unpopularity by being persistent in my opinion that it could never be a Mackenzie layout. Nice course, but Mackenzie . . . not in your wildest dreams.

[Grant Saunders]

Apologies to Mike Clayton as I was directing the comment toward Mike Duffy.

Mike Duffy

Thank you for expanding on your earlier comments. I was just curious to hear which courses you in fact feel would be worthy of the top rankings. I in fact agree with some of your comments earlier regarding some of the courses you spoke of.

The course you are referring to west of Auckland is Muriwai. Unfortunately, this course was rebuilt several years ago and the result is quite a drastic change from the original layout and feel. There are still a few of the original holes scattered amongst the new course.

I personally have not played enough of the courses here to make a completely informed statement regarding which are the best. Most of my golf has been played in the upper half of the north island so any list I produced would by favoured heavily with courses in that area.

Mike Clayton

You are quite right in that very few NZ courses would appear in an Aus-NZ list of top 25 or 50. We dont have many courses that stack up very well when compared internationally. What we do have are a lot of courses that serve the communities where they are and people can still play golf at very affordable prices. There has been an awakening here though in the last decade or so with the realization that we have the land to produce some fantastic courses unique to our part of the world and this potential is finally starting to show through. It just takes the right kind of people to do it.

Interestingly, Roxburgh Golf Club which comes in at 24 on Greg Turners list, is in danger of closing and are looking at cutting down to nine holes to save on maintenance costs in the hope of staying open.

[Jim Nugent]

Obviously I haven't played Kauri Cliffs, or Cape Kidnappers or some of the other new courses, so putting a list together of 25 would seem pointless...

Exactly why Golfweek and Golf Mag's ratings system is flawed.  The raters have to rank courses they never played.   

[Scott Macpherson]

Mike Duffy,

There was something about your first post that reminded me of the words 'cat, pigeons, throw, among'. You make the sentence. Thanks for the input, now you just need to get back to NZ with your clubs and play all your 'favourite' courses again. I wonder who's ratings of NZ's top 25 courses you would align yourself with?

Re Millbrook. Bob Charles is great New Zealander and should not be too closely associated with the course at Millbrook. We are currently adding 9 holes out there, and in January this year (2008), we were fortunate to have Sir Bob walk the new holes, and during that period he acknowledged that he had little to do with the original design as golf most of the time he was in the USA playing when the course was being constructed. The man at the helm was John Darby. A man who has since gone on to build other courses, the newest being Jack's Point, but also the course currently being used for the New Zealand Open - 'The Hills'. I have not played these courses, so cannot judge them, but I suspect they are a vast improvement.

Re Kelvin Heights. Mr Darby was recently, I believe, involved in the renovation of this course. I suspect you may have been seduced by the amazing views from the course. The routing has some serious flaws. No doubt it is a difficult piece or property, but there are safety issues that should not exists, and shot values that are off the 'Doak scale' – at the bottom end. Pity, because it is a well run facility, popular and a great place to spend a few hours (as contradictory as that sounds)

Oreti is preparing for the opening of the renovated course on March 9th, 2009. We have 4 new holes and a slight reconfiguration of some others. You we be pleased to know that your comments still hold accurate today, but we are bring the course into the 21st century. We would be delighted if you could join us.

This is the new 17th Hole. about 195 yard Par 3. (No flag on the green) The prevailing wind is slightly into you and off the right.


Funny you talk of Titahi Bay and New Judgeford. When I played representative golf as a Junior, these were courses that we had to play. I can't say I enjoyed them either. In fact NJ was the first time I hit a car when playing golf– and it wasn't even a very bad shot! When I return to NZ to see my parents I still drive the main road that runs through the course, and always find myself clenching my teeth! (Note the next time I hit a car while playing golf, was on TOC.. and I've done that a couple of times. And one of those times, it was my own car that got hit!)

There are other courses in the Wellington and Kapiti Coast region that teach you shots that are not in any Butch Harmon or David Leadbetter golf technique books! But, I know some people like these exercises in golf mountaineering, and who am I to tell them they shouldn't.

Re Sir Terry McLean, when he died, his estate must have sold all his sports books, because I ended up buying a bunch of his old golf books. I am very proud to have them in my collection.

In conclusion, I think it can be said that NZ golf is emerging from it own shadows. Mr Julian Robertsons investments have done a great deal to raise the profile of NZ Golf, and with architects like Doak, Nicklaus, RTJ Jr turning soil, there is some pedigree on the ground. I hope what has happened in the past 10 years will continued, with more good courses being built in NZ, even if it means no net increase in the number of courses in NZ.

Who knows, in 10 years we may have one or two course that make it into the AUS top 50, perhaps even the top 25....

Seasons Greetings,

Scott

[Mike_Clayton]

Scott,

As good as the land is down there NZ could have 15 or 20 courses in a combined top 50.
Partly its money and population but its also a Morcom/Russell thing as Tom said.
What they don't need is designers putting their names on courses but having little to do with them.
I think that of you have your name on it you take the credit - or the blame.

[Mike_Duffy]

A couple of replies:

Firstly Grant: Thanks for the heads up re Muriwai. I just couldn't get the name into my brain when I was typing that reply. I'm horrified to learn that the course has been "modernised". My memories of that interesting and very testing layout are still vivid. I deduce from your remarks that the remodelling has not resulted in the course being "improved".

Scott McPherson: You brought tears of joy to my eyes with the beautiful photo of the par 3 seventh at Oreti Sands. Those two days that I travelled from a cold and windy Invercargill to play that superb layout are still amongst my most treasured memories of my golf in NZ. In those two days I did not see one other soul on the course. Maybe it had something to do with the cold weather, but one could have been in Scotland such was the ambience of the place.

I would love to join you on 9 March for the opening, however, by then I will be back in Bangkok dreaming of the Sand Belt and indeed Oreti Sands.

You are correct about Kelvin Heights. I was totally seduced by the surrounding scenery. It must surely rank as one of the most scenic golf courses in the world. It was hard to concentrate on the golf with the unbelievable backdrop of mountains, lakes and graceful trees.

Yes, I know Sir Bob is a highly regarded Kiwi and I wouldn't like to criticise him when within an arms length of another New Zealander. However, I must agree with Mike Clayton, that if one has their moniker attached to a course, no matter what their input or lack thereof, one must take the brickbats with the bouquets.

I'm delighted to know that you are now the proud possessor of Terry Mac's sports books etc. I found him to be a man of very strong viewpoints but still an avid listener and a great debater. He spoke just as succinctly as he wrote. New Zealand sport and in particular New Zealand sports journalism is much the poorer for his passing.

As regards Mike C's challenge re how many NZ courses would make the top 25/50 in Oz, well obviously Paraparaumu Beach and a cleaned up Titirangi come to mind, but probably in the second 25. From the comments it would seem the Kauri Cliffs and Cape Kidnappers would be in the first echeleon.

Finally Scott, I have printed out that wonderful photo you have posted re Oreti Sands and I'm going to have it framed before I get back to Bangkok, because it will reside on my work desk there to remind me of that lovely course at the bottom of the world.

And season's greetings to you as well Scott and to your loved ones.

[Ash Towe]

Today I had the great pleasure of playing Titirangi with Mathew Molica.  It has been over a year since I last played there, accompanied by Ed Getka.  In the intervening time many more trees have been removed.  We were also playing with a member who said the plan was to remove all the non-native trees with natives where it was appropriate.  There has also been some bunkers renovated e.g. on the left hand side of 18 fairway.

Mike,
Regarding NZ courses to make an Australian top 50 I would nominate the following-
Kauri Clikks, CK, Wairakei, Kinloch, Paraparaumu, Shirley, Russley.
Others which could be discussed, Heretaunga, Terrace Downs, Jacks Point, Arrowtown.  There may be others which I have not played.

[Scott Macpherson]

HI Mike,

Glad you like the photo, and indeed the course. I am excited that people are discovering this true 'hidden gem'. For your benefit, there is a link that talks a little more about the renovations. It is...

http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,37399.0.html

I am happy to forward you updated photos of the course from the Opening Day also. Keep in touch.

Mike C- I agree. If you put your name on it, you must take the brick bats and bouquets. Live by the sword, die by the sword huh?

scott

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