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Don_Mahaffey

Why are all the modern bunkers so large?
« on: September 12, 2007, 04:35:07 PM »
It seems like the bunkers are getting bigger and bigger on modern courses. I'm not talking about the Pete Dye Sawgrass type that stretches from tee to green, but the individual bunkers that we see being built today.


If they are in fact bigger, and it's possible they are not as maybe the modern look is to position them to be more visible and appear bigger, then I think the reasons may be...

1. Bunkers are used more and more to transition from the manicured areas of the golf course into the native areas...the bunkers are large for artistic reasons...makes the course appear natural even if it's not a sandy site.

2. There is an undue emphasis on bunkers and architects are building larger, artistic bunkers more for the "wow" factor than for what is really needed to make the course better.

3. Playability. Large bunkers tend to be easier to play out of as you have more room to get the ball up and on it's way.

Anything else?

I like the bunkers Mike and I are building in TX as they are small, deep, penal, and don't require huge inputs to build or maintain. Why don’t we see more deep, erosion scar type bunkers?

Jim_Kennedy

Re:Why are all the modern bunkers so large?
« Reply #1 on: September 12, 2007, 04:46:39 PM »
Don,

1. Drainage

2. can't make laps with the SandPro

3. can't do 1,2,3 on your list
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Jay Flemma

Re:Why are all the modern bunkers so large?
« Reply #2 on: September 12, 2007, 05:24:31 PM »
Now wait a minute, all the mackenzie bunkers I have seen have been really huge!  plus there are some massive raynor/macd bunkers too.

Why are big bunkers a bad thing?  After all the second greatest bunker in golf MAY be the fourth at St. george's...

...and hey what about four at Bethp Blk?  That aint no pot bunker!

Don_Mahaffey

Re:Why are all the modern bunkers so large?
« Reply #3 on: September 12, 2007, 05:48:16 PM »
Jim,
Why is a bigger bunker easier to drain? Lost me here.

I wonder how many courses built in the last 3 years didn't use some sort of bunker fabric? If they did, then the motorized sand rakes will get that fabric sooner or later. I'm seeing lots of hand raking out there on the newer high end courses.

Jay,
You may be right about Dr Mac and the size of his bunkers...but methinks he built a few less in his day then what we are seeing now.
It may be that bunkers just get more attention due to their look now, than they did in the past. Seems like every picture we see now is framed by, or focused on, bunkers. The world is now full of bunker building gurus. Maybe they are only bigger to me because they seem to grab most of the attention on the newer courses.

Pete_Pittock

Re:Why are all the modern bunkers so large?
« Reply #4 on: September 12, 2007, 06:11:04 PM »
Just started the Macpherson book on St. Andrews. He says the total catchment area of all 100+ TOC bunkers is slightly less than one acre.

Chris_Hunt

Re:Why are all the modern bunkers so large?
« Reply #5 on: September 12, 2007, 08:06:33 PM »
Apart from large, photogenic bunkers on expensive projects getting more press than the budget-conscious municipal efforts...

How about the fact that the best courses with small bunker footprints (I am thinking of the links here) are neither visually compelling or informative as a result of their bunkering in most instances?

Or that flatter sights require larger bunkers to achieve a similar sliver of visible sand compared to rolling terrain?

If you want the bunkers that are really small and deep, you are talking about steeper faces and less of an impact of golf shots (particularly those not in the preferred line of play), assuming you have a non-sandy site that cannot have collecting bunkers, where water is draining into them.  Even sandy sites these days are rarely ballsy enough to drain fairways into bunkers with any kind of regularity.  The Sandpro usage is a point of emphasis for sure, but bunkers are also a function of equipment size and type used to construct them, in my experience, and those have undoubtedly grown over the decades.

And a lot of the large bunkers can also act as protection for the average golfer from greater tragedies beyond them.  This is certainly a factor on some of the bolder properties being developed these days.

CHrisB

Re:Why are all the modern bunkers so large?
« Reply #6 on: September 12, 2007, 08:26:32 PM »
Just started the Macpherson book on St. Andrews. He says the total catchment area of all 100+ TOC bunkers is slightly less than one acre.

In firm and fast conditions, a single pot bunker can "defend" 50-60+ yards of territory--a ball landing 25-30 yards short of it may run into it, and a ball can fly into it if the target is 25-30 yards beyond it.

In softer conditions, you would need many more bunkers, or larger bunkers, to achieve the same effect.

Peter Zarlengo

Re:Why are all the modern bunkers so large?
« Reply #7 on: September 12, 2007, 08:58:56 PM »
SCALE
Most of the newer courses I've played and seen tend to be on flat, treeless property. I think that the large bunker give this sprawling landscape some sort of scale. A small bunker on a really big piece of propery, while maybe even more noticable, really doesn't fit that kind of landscape better.

But  I think that you hit it on the head with your reason #1. People expect the fairway-bunker/rough-native concept and are thrown a little when they see something different. Large scale bunkers en masse have become second nature to the public's view of a modern course. But I think that most the people I play golf with couldn't care less if the courses are played on a naturally sandy site, so I can't go with you on that one.

What about amount of irrigated turf? Surely numerous, large bunkers decrease that number. And with the water restriction I see on courses, bunkers could maybe be the answer to that dilema.

Ian Andrew

Re:Why are all the modern bunkers so large?
« Reply #8 on: September 12, 2007, 09:02:44 PM »
Don,

1. visibility - far more important than it used to be
2. aesthetics - I sometimes wonder if people care more about what their course looks like rathwer than what it plays like.
3. the ball - the ever changing distance a ball will travel begs for more "adaptable" methods of bunkering (or more bunkers)

Matt_Sullivan

Re:Why are all the modern bunkers so large?
« Reply #9 on: September 12, 2007, 09:22:51 PM »
I think irrigated turf is a factor because it leads courses to play softer, so you need a bigger bunker to catch a shot that would have run into a smaller bunker if the turf was firm and fast.

Also, it seems to me that many modern courses leave a collar of rough around their bunkers, or indeed place fairway bunkers well into the rough. I assume it is easier/cheaper not to mow all around bunkers, but it means the bunkers have to be bigger to catch anything (because a bad shot has to go in on the full or at least on the first bounce).

My home course has plenty of areas where mowing the rough to fairway height in certain places (particularly around certain bunkers) would make the course play harder.
« Last Edit: September 12, 2007, 09:24:49 PM by Matt_Sullivan »

Don_Mahaffey

Re:Why are all the modern bunkers so large?
« Reply #10 on: September 12, 2007, 09:36:07 PM »
Some really good responses so far...but I keep hearing about scale...is the road hole bunker out of scale?

The Old Course is a big place...it's not built on the side of a mountain with 100 mile views...but it is big...why do the small bunkers work there...are they out of scale?

What exactly does scale mean to golf course architecture and how tied to proper scale do you need to be to build something good?

RichMacafee

Re:Why are all the modern bunkers so large?
« Reply #11 on: September 12, 2007, 09:47:20 PM »
Some really good responses so far...but I keep hearing about scale...is the road hole bunker out of scale?

The Old Course is a big place...it's not built on the side of a mountain with 100 mile views...but it is big...why do the small bunkers work there...are they out of scale?

What exactly does scale mean to golf course architecture and how tied to proper scale do you need to be to build something good?

I think Matt and Chris's points answer that. The road hole bunker would not work on that hole if the turf was lush and irrigated. The balls would not feed into the bunker.

It is not so much the scale, but the combination of the turf conditions and the undulations that make it work. Effectively it is a very big hazard - despite its actual square meter size.

There is no doubt that visibility is a higher priority than it used to be.
"The uglier a man's legs are, the better he plays golf. It's almost law" H.G.Wells.

Ryan Farrow

Re:Why are all the modern bunkers so large?
« Reply #12 on: September 12, 2007, 09:49:54 PM »
Don if I am not mistaken, the general topography of St. Andrews consists of small humps and hollows?

So if you have a site like the one at rock creek with large hills that you play between, around, and over, you are not going to carve out little bunkers into large, broad hillsides. When deciding scale on a site it is not necessarily the openness or perception of a large site as a whole but the size of the features you intimately play golf around.

Don_Mahaffey

Re:Why are all the modern bunkers so large?
« Reply #13 on: September 12, 2007, 10:10:56 PM »
Ryan,
Yes, TOC is bumpy ground, but it does have a "big" feeling...at least it did to me. Certainly not the long vistas you enjoyed in MT, but this thread is not about Rock Creek, and it's not a criticism of Doak's work there.

What I see is an over emphasis on bunkers and bunker building that may mean better bunkers, but not necessarily better golf courses. Nuzzo's been hearing it from me for 2 years now, this isn't a reaction to any other threads on this page other than the timing seemed right.

Take a look at most of the modern courses being built.
I think Ian pretty much nailed it as it's about visibility and aesthetics more than anything else.

Rich,
I agree with you. The road bunker may be small but it influences a large area. Modern construction techniques would allow for more bunkers like that, if we wanted to build 'em.
« Last Edit: September 12, 2007, 10:13:55 PM by Don_Mahaffey »

Mike Nuzzo

Re:Why are all the modern bunkers so large?
« Reply #14 on: September 12, 2007, 11:28:01 PM »
Yes I've been hearing from Don for a while.....
So in my best Don impersonation....

Big Bunkers Sell.  :)
Thinking of Bob, Rihc, Bill, George, Neil, Dr. Childs, & Tiger.

Tom_Doak

Re:Why are all the modern bunkers so large?
« Reply #15 on: September 13, 2007, 08:17:54 AM »
Don:

As I wrote on the Rock Creek thread, the two most important reasons we use big bunkers are as a playability and visual transition, but it is also sometimes a cheaper alternative to getting more acres of playability, than more acres of irrigated turf.

But, you and Ian are also right, bunkers are partly being built for purely visual reasons because everybody oohs and aahs over them.  It's probably the biggest influence of this web site ... turning Jeff Bradley and some of my associates into rock stars because they built some cool bunkers.  Now everyone wants to hire those guys to give their course the oohs and aahs, and if you're going to pay a guy big bucks to shape bunkers, you're not going to stop at 30 of them right?

Bunkers are starting to become like mounds were in the 1980's, once you start putting them on one hole you have to keep going across the entire golf course.

Eric Franzen

Re:Why are all the modern bunkers so large?
« Reply #16 on: September 13, 2007, 08:25:26 AM »

Big Bunkers Sell.  :)

Tom Fazio just dialed in to say that he agrees.


Jim_Kennedy

Re:Why are all the modern bunkers so large?
« Reply #17 on: September 13, 2007, 08:40:19 AM »
Don,
You mentioned the small, deep bunkers that you were building. I'm in CT., heavy soil, build a small, deep bunker in most places here and we call it a pond.
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Jeff_Brauer

Re:Why are all the modern bunkers so large?
« Reply #18 on: September 13, 2007, 09:19:12 AM »
I always thought the big bunker trend was to accomodate sand pros - they used to need almost a 20' diameter lobe to get around.  At slopes over 20% or so they used to drag sand down more than rake it, plus the flattening helps reduce sand washing down in every rain.

I recall an ASGCA meeting in DFW in 1983 (which in part convinced me to move here) where the architects went against the code in thoroughly thrashing RTJ II for the scale of his bunkers at Las Colinas.  KN thought they were fine and not too much different that Kemper Lakes scale.

FWIW, my bunkers are getting smaller these days.  At Colbert Hills, (a large scale course that did need bigger features, to save a post on another thread) we had 100,000 SF, but 88,000 SF was pretty standard for me.  My two newest courses are half that, with only a few less bunkers.

Now that bunker liner is almost standard, which requires hand raking, the lobes don't have to be so big, and smaller sand surfaces reduce the hand raking time.  Slopes can be a bit steeper again, reducing size.

BTW, next time you fly into NY or CHI check out the courses from the air.  Old time bunkers are bigger than you think!  I was struck  by how wide ,front to back, those old bunkers were, if not bigger overall in scale.  For that matter, Google Sebonic, NGLA, and Shinney (as someone recently did) and tell me which course of those three has the biggest and smallest bunkers.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

jeffwarne

Re:Why are all the modern bunkers so large?
« Reply #19 on: September 13, 2007, 09:19:16 AM »
Eric,
absolutely ghastly :'(
a mid-high handicapper could spend a day in there playing and raking (although on that particular site there's a guy in white jump  suit to rake for you)

I played this course with my best client- (arriving in the most indiscreet way imaginable) Which was perfectly appropriate given the "ambiance" ::), culture :-[ and "architecture" of the place.

the opposite of what I would do personally and where I would go if I were looking for a great day.

"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

TEPaul

Re:Why are all the modern bunkers so large?
« Reply #20 on: September 13, 2007, 09:43:38 AM »
In theory I'm more for small bunkers (and other comparable hazard features like rough mounds and hollows) that are very strategically placed (generally completely INSIDE fairway lines) for a very simple and basic golf reason. That is if they are smallish in relation to what's around them (fairway) and the golfer gets in them----then intuitively he probably realizes he has noone to blame other than HIMSELF!!    ;)


I think this kind of thing boils down to what I consider to be perhaps the greatest golf architecture principle of all----and that is the degree to which an architect can create something that sort of intuitively forces golfers to take responsibility for their own actions is the degree to which he has created great golf course architecture and a great golf course.

And so ends the first lesson of Max Behrianism.  ;)
« Last Edit: September 13, 2007, 11:05:13 AM by TEPaul »

Peter Pallotta

Re:Why are all the modern bunkers so large?
« Reply #21 on: September 13, 2007, 10:19:04 AM »
An aside re the playability of larger bunkers. From what I've read, the average handicap hasn't dropped one iota in decades; despite new technology, golfers aren't getting any better. In fact, allowing for that new technology and the building of more strategic (i.e. less penal) courses, golfers might actually have gotten worse over the years. And I think they've also gotten more sensitive about it, i.e. if they're paying a lot of money to play high-end public or resort courses, they're demanding (via their choice of venues) that the designer not highlight their limited skills by, for example, using small, deep pot bunkers instead of expansive, flat-bottomed ones.  (I don't often see those large bunkers on low-end municipal courses...though that probably has to do with a lot of other factors rather than with what I'm theorizing here).

All just guess-work of course. But off Tom P's post: if small bunkers force the golfer to, at least intuitively, blame himself for his troubles, maybe large bunkers do the exact opposite, i.e. allow him to think something like "Damn you cruel Fate,  that has fashioned such a large expanse of punishing sand in the exact place from where I'd hoped to play my next shot." Maybe that's it: the average (i.e. poor) golfer who has paid a lot of money would simply rather blame Fate than himself for his troubles. "The fault, dear Bruno, lies not in ourselves but in that sand, that we are bogie-men."

Thanks for some very good posts, by the way. And Tom P, I'd been feeling rather poorly these last few days, but your lesson on Max Behrianism has returned me to the pink. Thanks (and mark me down in the "dork" thread if that wasn't a given already)

Peter
« Last Edit: September 13, 2007, 11:21:49 AM by Peter Pallotta »

Rich Goodale

Re:Why are all the modern bunkers so large?
« Reply #22 on: September 13, 2007, 10:33:38 AM »
I agree with Jeff B. that this is not necesssarily a "modern" phenomenon.  Shinnecock and Merion come immediately to mind as two golden oldies that have bunkers which are significantly above average sized.  Maybe it's just a Flynn thing....

I also personally agree with TEP (and Behr, if he said so!) that the smaller the better.  Not only is it more natural looking, it complicates the golfer's strategic thinking, which is good.  Quite frankly, I can't see any reason for humungous bunkers other than pure marketing (they photograph well, they make customers think they are getting something supersized, they stroke the owner/developer's ego, etc.).  Golf-wise (with a few obvious exceptions) they are counterproductive and dissonant.

Jeff_Brauer

Re:Why are all the modern bunkers so large?
« Reply #23 on: September 13, 2007, 10:48:14 AM »
Rich,

Thanks for agreeing! A new first on gca.com! ;)

I think the ga designers had varying scales, with Ross being the smallest and MacK being the largest scale bunkers, other than Raynor and CBM.  Tillie was all over the map, and Thomas was somewhere in between.  But, overall, the earthworks and bunker size scale was fairly well defined by the Golden Age, other than things like waste bunkers.

BTW, I don't think big bunkers help marketing because they can't be ascertained in photos as big or small in scale.  Frankly, I think a MacKenzie cape and bay bunker photographs better than a big, blah bunker.

I also think there is a proportion to bunkers that make them attractive.  For all the Rees Pieces bashing on this site, I think objections to his (or RB Harris) big ovals can be boiled down to "Not enough shape for their size" (or too much size for their shape!)

That proportion can be delicate. I wonder how many cape and bay bunkers have lost their magic when a super has pulled the noses up just a wee bit for maintenance.  Those grass noses are kind of like the sand bays - there are certain dimensions that different mowers need to get around to avoid hand maintenance and many attractive bunkers have gone to so so in the name of maintenance over the years.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

BCrosby

Re:Why are all the modern bunkers so large?
« Reply #24 on: September 13, 2007, 11:02:28 AM »
Jeff/Rich -

To make it a red letter day, I want to agree with both of you.

You might be interested that the MacK/Behr alliance had an argument with J. Crane about this very subject. Crane wanted to see big and bigger bunkers because he thought they minimized "arbitrary" results. That is, big bunkers reduced the chance of disparate results for similarly missed shots.

Crane disliked what he called "small, fussy bunkers". Bunkers at the 4th at Myopia were his example.

MacK/Behr - anticipating the very sage TEP - wanted bunkers just to be natural looking. They objected to preconceived notions about size. (I have been making the same point to my wife for years. ;))

Bob

« Last Edit: September 13, 2007, 11:03:30 AM by BCrosby »

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