Women's National Golf & Tennis Club

[Michael Chadwick]

Michael:


You can point out the changes between the 1926 and the 1940 aerial:
- the new 8th green has been built. (old 8th green is still visible!)
- new tees for the 9th.
- the new 17th green (the old green was inside the fairway)
- new tees for the 18th.
- there are definitely some big differences in bunkering added on many holes (1,2,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12,13,14,15,17,18)

Resized Angela's notes above.

Below is my estimation of the routing. Correct?

[Stewart Abramson]

The photo bucket links at the beginning of this thread are no longer working. Here's a link to photos of the back nine at Glen Head from 2018  https://www.flickr.com/photos/golfcoursepix/albums/72157697369505501/

[Simon Barrington]

Not to go too far off on a tangent, but there is a notable footnote in these articles, which I had picked up on a while back before seeing this thread, was contained within the study visit with Cecil Leitch to "find" holes to mimic.

Cecil was Ladies' President (c.1920-26) of my home club, Henley GC (designed by James Braid 1907, as discussed in my recent podcast if this interests anyone) and was a very keen student/protogee of James Braid (it is claimed she was once disciplined at school for reading Braid's "Advanced Golf" under her desk during lessons!)

As per the article Hollins met and played 36 holes around Walton Heath with Braid and Leitch, and no doubt they discussed both Fowler's designs there (as noted in the article) and Braid's own thoughts on Golf Architecture for Women.

Braid himself was a huge champion of the Women's game and wrote in 1907 a hard-to-get book "The Ladies' Field Golf Book" the first book specifically written by a leading Professional of the day for Women.

It also includes a chapter on Golf Architecture for Ladies' courses, which may be the first of such.

Notably given his partnering two highy capable women on that tour it is relevant that he thought back in 1907 the desired length for a nine-hole course (as most Ladies' courses were at that time) was 2600 yards (or more), that was probably in response to some really very short attempts by others on such courses attached to Men's clubs back in the day (perceptions needed to be changed from "The Himalayas" upwards you might say)

To a James Braid researcher the small influence Braid may have given Hollins in her project is really notable, as he only has one design credit anywhere in the US at St Andrews GC of NY (where he designed 4-holes and gave advice on bunkering & trees, from afar using topographical maps, as per his peer Donald Ross).

I concur a Moser-led restoration would be absolutely the best way forward, but as in all such things the Club and its members need to understand what they have and get a vision for what a uniquely special place it could be (once again)...

[Brett Hochstein]

Very cool stuff, and thanks everyone for sharing.


First thing that stands out to me with those old photos and aerials--those features are BOLD and not of a pushover type. That probably speaks to a few things: certainly a more "sporting" nature of golf pleasantly present at the time but also insights into Hollins's thinking of what the game for women really should have been, in her opinion. Maybe holes aren't quite as long and greens have some more open fronts, but the challenges and thrills overall should be much the same as it is for the better male players.  It's one thing to speak that, but cooler to actually see that.


Hopefully this eventually gets some momentum and that someday Angela can do her thing. Would be really neat to see. (also, the older course just looks cool, outside of the great story and history)

[Colin Sheehan]

Here is an early scorecard with a grand total of 5,914.


https://photos.app.goo.gl/LYoki9m69siBVPuA7


Isn't that about the distance of Sedge Valley?

[Michael Chadwick]

First thing that stands out to me with those old photos and aerials--those features are BOLD and not of a pushover type. That probably speaks to a few things: certainly a more "sporting" nature of golf pleasantly present at the time but also insights into Hollins's thinking of what the game for women really should have been, in her opinion. Maybe holes aren't quite as long and greens have some more open fronts, but the challenges and thrills overall should be much the same as it is for the better male players.  It's one thing to speak that, but cooler to actually see that.

Agreed, Brett, there are some holes that make no pretense of avoiding forced carries (and they look like a blast to play). Colin's scorecard makes me think the hole numbers I assigned to the aerial a couple replies earlier is correct. The par 3 4th is fascinating, especially with that left flank of fairway to make it a drive and pitch par 3 for the bogey golfer. The 8th is a very tactful par 5 with the differently oriented diagonal bunkering lines. 14 and 15 robust par 5s with forced carry fairway bunkers. 16 a devilish short par 3 with an island green surrounded by sand.


Colin, thanks for providing the scorecard! Okay for me to paste it into the thread for ease of visibility? And yes, Sedge Valley back tee is just under at 5,829.

[Colin Sheehan]

Michael,
Please do so. If I knew how to post, I would!


Here's the other side of the card.


https://photos.app.goo.gl/FN1mdMkAvApxuR6c9

[Bret Lawrence]

Michael,


Your routing of Women’s National Golf & Tennis Club looks correct to me.  The 1924 article, that was posted earlier in the thread has a scorecard which indicates how the course played in 1924 and the 1926 aerial follows this routing exactly.  Colin’s scorecard shows us how the course was played in 1928 and that routing is more closely aligned with the course we see in the 1940 aerial.  This tells me that Colin’s card is from after Flynn made his changes to the golf course.  The aerials shows us that these changes by Flynn were not noticeable in the 1926 aerial. Therefore Flynn working on the course in 1926-1927 seems to align with the information we have been given.


Here is a comparison of the two cards:
1924.                             1928
1. 420-Par 5.             1. 392-Par 4
2. 325-Par 4.             2. 319-Par 4
3. 363-Par 4.             3. 360-Par 4
4. 180-Par 3.             4. 188-Par 3
5. 400-Par 5.             5. 334-Par 4
6. 340-Par 4.             6. 370-Par 4
7. 210-Par 4.             7. 225-Par 4
8. 373-Par 4.             8. 411-Par 5
9. 270-Par 4.             9. 378-Par 4


10. 426-Par 5.          10. 377-Par 4
11. 350-Par 4.          11. 361-Par 4
12. 145-Par 3.          12. 136-Par 3
13. 360-Par 4.          13. 322-Par 4
14. 430-Par 5.          14. 426-Par 5
15. 500-Par 5.          15. 468-Par 5
16. 135-Par 3.          16. 113-Par 3
17. 320-Par 4.          17. 393-Par 4
18. 323-Par 4.          18. 441-Par 5


The biggest changes between 1924 and 1928 appear to be on holes 8, 9, 17 and 18 due to the new positioning of the 8th and 17th greens discussed earlier in this thread. There were several changes to distance and Par on other holes as well, but they aren’t as noticeable in the aerial photographs.

[Michael Chadwick]

[Bret Lawrence]

Ralph picked a great venue for a mixed foursome with the Mrs.


Thanks for sharing Michael and Colin!

[Brian Zager]

Angela both made me aware of and persuaded me to help her in her Women's National quest during the brief time I was at the construction of Pinehurst No. 10.  I walked Women’s National aka Glen Head with her this past summer.

In the Marion Hollins biography it was mentioned that Alexa Stirling’s average carry distance off the tee of 175 yards was used in the consideration of placing hazards on the course (though they were careful to say that one single yardage should not define the strategy).  I wanted to try to understand it from the perspective of that player.  I made a Google Earth KMZ drawing of those distances off the tees of the 1926 aerial before visiting so I could easily identify when we were on them.  It really struck me that it wasn’t just the built hazards, the routing made really interesting use of the land in consideration of somebody hitting it those distances.  The most interesting topography is in these zones and almost always presents choices for you to make between one side of the hole and the other.

This 1926 aerial of the course is almost certainly part of the same aerial photograph flights we used in restoring the Lido, as both are in Nassau County and have a similar look and feel.  This property however wasn’t completely wiped out by development.  It wasn’t even completely wiped out by golf architecture tampering.  If an old feature wasn’t built over the top of by something new, there was pretty much always still something to find of it in the ground.  These remnants all over the property can be used as data points to align the old aerial and restore the things that there aren’t remnants of in near perfect 2D accuracy.  I created a highly refined alignment of the 1926 aerial to the real world, with updates made after the visit.  The 3D requires pictures of the lost built features to scale off of, so it’s great to see pictures emerge in this thread.

I don’t know what type of golfer constitutes the club's membership today but despite the modern power game there are still plenty of people that hit it those distances, both men and women.  As it stands it’s just another course trying to be something for everyone that everyone else is doing.  If it went back to its roots and focused on what it was originally designed to be great at, it would recapture strategic interest and stand out as something unique in our current times.

[Tim_Weiman]

It was incredible to walk the property last summer and point out the old green sites to the Superintendent, who had no idea about the overgrown sharp humps being that. We shared the 1926 aerial on GE so he could go and explore how big and excellent his greens used to be.


One of my instant favorites from studying the aerial was the Architecture of the 8th hole. The original 8th green is still visibly there but now has a maintenance path through it. It is one of the holes lengthened by moving the green further back and to the left. The original bunkering is gone, but the landforms are still visible. The new green is the " Reversed Redan-ish" green that Robert Mercer Reduntz was referring to.


The course used to have so much more spice. The routing, the former greens (sizes and slopes), and the brilliant bunkering (cross bunkers, angles, distances from tees, placement of them in combination with the slopes, green site bunkering), especially with that amount of topography...


Although on the same land, the par-3 12th hole is relatively new. It used to be a bunker-less par-3 with a diagonal creek in front of the green, but now it has a pond and bunkering. 


I left the property with a bittersweet taste. It was all still there, but it seemed they didn't know or weren't interested in investigating their past. But never say never...

Angela,


Pretty cool story. It would have been fun to walk along with you as you pointed out things the Superintendent didn’t see or appreciate.


I did kind of had a similar experience with Tommy Naccarato at Recreation Park in Long Beach, CA. I lived in Long Beach for about five years and played the course many times, but Tommy, who had studied aerials from the 1930s, made me feel like I had never seen the course before!


I hope your dream comes true.


Tim Weiman

[Michael Chadwick]

Angela both made me aware of and persuaded me to help her in her Women's National quest during the brief time I was at the construction of Pinehurst No. 10.  I walked Women’s National aka Glen Head with her this past summer.

In the Marion Hollins biography it was mentioned that Alexa Stirling’s average carry distance off the tee of 175 yards was used in the consideration of placing hazards on the course (though they were careful to say that one single yardage should not define the strategy).  I wanted to try to understand it from the perspective of that player.  I made a Google Earth KMZ drawing of those distances off the tees of the 1926 aerial before visiting so I could easily identify when we were on them.  It really struck me that it wasn’t just the built hazards, the routing made really interesting use of the land in consideration of somebody hitting it those distances.  The most interesting topography is in these zones and almost always presents choices for you to make between one side of the hole and the other.

This 1926 aerial of the course is almost certainly part of the same aerial photograph flights we used in restoring the Lido, as both are in Nassau County and have a similar look and feel.  This property however wasn’t completely wiped out by development.  It wasn’t even completely wiped out by golf architecture tampering.  If an old feature wasn’t built over the top of by something new, there was pretty much always still something to find of it in the ground.  These remnants all over the property can be used as data points to align the old aerial and restore the things that there aren’t remnants of in near perfect 2D accuracy.  I created a highly refined alignment of the 1926 aerial to the real world, with updates made after the visit.  The 3D requires pictures of the lost built features to scale off of, so it’s great to see pictures emerge in this thread.

I don’t know what type of golfer constitutes the club's membership today but despite the modern power game there are still plenty of people that hit it those distances, both men and women.  As it stands it’s just another course trying to be something for everyone that everyone else is doing.  If it went back to its roots and focused on what it was originally designed to be great at, it would recapture strategic interest and stand out as something unique in our current times.

Brian, thanks for adding additional context to Angela's (and your) interest in the course. Do you have any images that are sharable at this point? Either the KMZ you mention, or the refined alignment of the 1926 to today?


Apart from Glen Head's superintendent, are there any club members or committee members aware of yours and Angela's interest?

[Chris Hughes]

It was incredible to walk the property last summer and point out the old green sites to the Superintendent, who had no idea about the overgrown sharp humps being that. We shared the 1926 aerial on GE so he could go and explore how big and excellent his greens used to be.

The course used to have so much more spice.

I left the property with a bittersweet taste. It was all still there, but it seemed they didn't know or weren't interested in investigating their past. But never say never...

Angela,


Pretty cool story. It would have been fun to walk along with you as you pointed out things the Superintendent didn’t see or appreciate.


I did kind of had a similar experience with Tommy Naccarato at Recreation Park in Long Beach, CA. I lived in Long Beach for about five years and played the course many times, but Tommy, who had studied aerials from the 1930s, made me feel like I had never seen the course before!

I hope your dream comes true.

Tim Weiman

Great info in this thread!


Tim, would love to see a similar thread for Big Rec...??


Big Rec represents everything that's great about "golf"...even Matt would feel comfortable there! 

[Angela Moser]

Thank you, Collin, for sharing the scorecard from '26. It's fantastic to see something with a date and play from WNGTC's history.


There are a few older pictures hanging in the Pro Shop, including one of the original clubhouse and an older scorecard (unfortunately undated and without recorded play). That particular scorecard appears to be from after Colin's, as holes 8 & 9 and 17 & 18 had already been adjusted, and likely closer to the time the Creek Club acquired WNGTC. The mention of the "Men's Par" at the bottom of this card is an interesting detail.  (*I am not sure how to post images either, Collin)
On a related note, when clearing out their attic, the Creek Club uncovered an unopened box of WNGTC scorecards and kindly sent them back to Glen Head. This is a nice serendipity for anyone interested in preserving the course's history! Once I am back home, I will have to check if it is the same card as Colins or from the ProShop.


Of course, restoring the course would be a dream come true for me, but it’s worth remembering how much better the course used to be—it would be a win for the members. From what I understand, the intent of the course was to create a challenging design that catered to and tested women’s golf. The routing, the use of topography, the angles, greens, and the bunkering were all exceptional for a course of its distance. Keeping it shorter makes it playable and enjoyable for most, but with just enough bite to keep things interesting.


If you’re a long hitter, why not leave the driver at home? It would be fascinating to explore insights into the club’s members—handicaps, driving distances, and how the course plays for them. Imagine playing with your mom and dad on a course that fits their game rather than them struggling to carry the drivable bunker for you with their second or third shot. I doubt that the majority of today's golfers would have been capable of winning a match against some of the best Women back then. So why must this course be reinvented if you have a unique golden classic right before your nose?


Although I don’t know any board members, the course fascinates me. I love playing detective and uncovering what happened.


@Brian: I might be misunderstanding your phrasing here, but to clarify, you weren’t directly involved with No. 10. You had visited to ask questions for your project, observe, and play some golf in the Pinehurst area. In return for setting you up with golf, staying with the crew, and having free housing, you kindly provided the historic aerial of WNGTC to me, which I very much appreciate.


@Tim: He was surprised at how large the greens used to be—13, in particular, stood out. The green originally started at least 15 yards before the current green and expanded all the way to the back. The bunkers are somewhat grown in but could be quickly restored. Unfortunately, I was told there were plans to redo and even close some bunkers without historical guidance, with the work being done last fall.  :'(

[Bret Lawrence]

Including a photograph of the 16th hole from a Carters Tested Seeds Advertisment:
Golf Illustrated., March 1924.

[Michael Chadwick]

Including a photograph of the 16th hole from a Carters Tested Seeds Advertisment:

Fantastic, Bret. Safe to assume this photo was taken amidst construction? Because the 1926 aerial has sand encircling the green (except for maybe the back left corner for connecting to 17 tee.)

[Brian Zager]

If you’re a long hitter, why not leave the driver at home? It would be fascinating to explore insights into the club’s members—handicaps, driving distances, and how the course plays for them. Imagine playing with your mom and dad on a course that fits their game rather than them struggling to carry the drivable bunker for you with their second or third shot. I doubt that the majority of today's golfers would have been capable of winning a match against some of the best Women back then. So why must this course be reinvented if you have a unique golden classic right before your nose?

I agree, and I’d probably want to play hickory clubs if I was playing the original course, and without the driver if that was also needed to keep it interesting.  Though I will say I can understand if it is someone’s only club why they might not want a course that they can’t play modern golf on.  Which means getting the club membership back to represent what the course was all about is probably required and maybe the hardest part. (Hope I'm wrong, I have no actual knowledge of the membership or their feelings)

@Brian: I might be misunderstanding your phrasing here, but to clarify, you weren’t directly involved with No. 10. You had visited to ask questions for your project, observe, and play some golf in the Pinehurst area. In return for setting you up with golf, staying with the crew, and having free housing, you kindly provided the historic aerial of WNGTC to me, which I very much appreciate.

Yes, what I was trying to convey if it didn’t come across was, I didn’t know anything about Women’s National before asked me to look into it prior to my visit to No. 10, you’re passion for it while I was there got me interested enough to help some more beyond that, and when we went and saw it, I was completely convinced that a restoration would live up to the expectations.

You did throw me in a dozer for an afternoon and it was my first time, so my direct involvement in No. 10 was that I didn't screw anything up (I hope) 

[Bret Lawrence]

Including a photograph of the 16th hole from a Carters Tested Seeds Advertisment:

Fantastic, Bret. Safe to assume this photo was taken amidst construction? Because the 1926 aerial has sand encircling the green (except for maybe the back left corner for connecting to 17 tee.)

Michael,  I apologize for not including the date for that photograph. I have modified my previous post to include it.  The photograph above was published in Golf Illustrated., March 1924.  The same photograph is also published in the April 1924 article posted earlier, as a small inset.  Without leaves in the trees and a pin in the green, I think it’s safe to assume this picture was taken during the winter months of 1923-1924, amidst construction or grow-in.


Bret

[Colin Sheehan]

As the father of three girls who are each developing interest in the game, I do hope a modern women's club takes hold. And it would be wonderful for Angela to be critical to its design and construction.


Reading this thread made me go back and peek at the Westchester Women's course...which I first remember seeing from Bret's posts on the Connecticut 1934 thread.


Since I haven't ever seen a scorecard---I should re-check---I was curious what its approx length might be.


https://photos.app.goo.gl/iHBaonUCLv8kyuFd9


(The image of the news article I clipped from Bret's post on the other thread.)
It is just guessing, but I have it about 3000 yards. Some similarly interesting bunkering by Emmet. The two par-three greens especially look fun.

[Bret Lawrence]

Colin, 


I believe the Emmet course in Banksville was estimated around 3,100 yards in the 1930-1931 American Annual Golf Guide.  The club became the Middle Patent Club and I am almost positive the Ralph Kennedy scorecard collection includes a scorecard from Middle Patent Club.  I had never heard of the course before I saw Ralph’s list of CT courses played and this one was included. 


Bret

[Tom_Doak]

Angela:


Did you not, when several years ago I told you my idea to build a course geared toward women, tell me that was a sexist idea?


Just clarifying . . . I still think it's a great idea, and if you do it before I do, then maybe I will do one without you so we can compare results. 


Streamsong should have done it when I suggested it.  It would have changed the vibe there completely.  Instead they have The Chain and whatever David Kidd builds next.

[Thomas Dai]

The names may have changed but three courses I’ve thoroughly enjoyed playing are …
The Ladies Putting Club at St Andrew (aka The Himalayas)
Formby Ladies GC
Sunningdale Ladies GC (now Sunningdale Heath).
Golf would be in a better place if there were more courses akin to them.
Atb

[Bret Lawrence]

Including a photograph of the 16th hole from a Carters Tested Seeds Advertisment:

Fantastic, Bret. Safe to assume this photo was taken amidst construction? Because the 1926 aerial has sand encircling the green (except for maybe the back left corner for connecting to 17 tee.)

Michael,


Here is another photograph of the 16th green with the sand completely surrounding the green.  I borrowed these photograph from Sven Nilsen’s post in the Compilation of Routings thread. Golf Illustrated., August 1928:



Golf Illustrated., August 1928