Women's National Golf & Tennis Club

[Robert Mercer Deruntz]

This post has produced some interesting news offline.  There are some key members at Glen Head who are trying to implement a restoration.  There are a few things not worth restoring--the original 1st green and the original 3rd. I was on the phone today with a member who knows the course history very well.  The original 1st green was located behind the 5th green and in front of the 2nd tee.  Additionally, the 3rd green was somewhere up on the top of the hill where you can see the bunkers.  The 4th tee was located somewhat in the vicicnity of the right fairway bunker.  This hole was an angled par 3 with cliff depth bunkers on the front right side.  An interesting comment was that at one time all greens could be seen from the clubhouse--this is a rolling hilled course.  The topography really is awesome.  I really believe that after some work that this course will receive a great architectural buzz.  

[wsmorrison]

RMD,

Can you please number the holes as seen in this GoogleEarth aerial?



In looking at a 1940 aerial, while there were few trees on the golf course and none that look planted, there was no way you could see all of the greens, especially looking towards the northern portion of the property.  There are only a few significant changes between the course today and 1940.  One hole was lengthened into a dogleg right par 5, one hole was turned into a dogleg to account for a driving range and it seems like an additional par 3 was added north and slightly east of the range tee.

[wsmorrison]

A NY Times article dated January 26, 1922 indicates that the original name of the club was to be Glen Head Golf and Tennis Club  announcing that Hollins changed the name to Women's National Golf and Tennis Club.  The article later stated that Hollins was sailing to England to get ideas for laying out the club with the assistance of Cecil Leitch.  Devereux Emmet was named the golf architect who, "...will lay out the links along the lines proposed by Miss Hollins and her associates."

A November 21, 1922 article discusses the assistance of CBM and Raynor along with the hole yardages planned:  390, 400, 320,185,370,130,365,400,360 (2920);420,325,365,210,410,340,165,375,270 (2860).

[Robert Mercer Deruntz]

Order of holes:
   1.  Bottom right, adjoining the practice range
   2.  Bottom goiing right to left
   3.  Bottom left tee going up entire left side of picture
   4.  Interior right of #3 going parallel to #3
   5.  Above #2 going parallel towards 1st hole
   6.  Parallel right of #1 going towards clubhouse
   7.  Par 3 running parallel to #6 across the lake
   8.  Running up the picture between #4 and #7 and then
        doglegging left
   9.  Running to back of clubhouse
   10. Middle left side of road running up picture
   11. Top of picture, running left to right
   12. Par 3 running left of 11th green
   13. Dogleg left up hill
   14. Straightaway hole running towards condo development
   15. Straightaway par 5 running parallel to #14 towards
         road
   16. Short par 3 at top of picture
   17. Dogleg right running from behind 16th green to middle
         left edge of picture
   18. Running from behind 17th green above and parallel to
         9th fairway ending in front of clubouse

[wsmorrison]

Thanks, Robert.  I spoke with Mitch Hantman offline and he clued me in.  There's a fellow at the club, Marty Winkelman, that seems to have a good sense of the history.  I contacted him and I'll see what turns up.

[Robert Mercer Deruntz]

I was fortunate to view an original scorecard.  Of note, the routing is pretty much the same--only two holes have siginficantly different yardages--#1 and #3.  The first green used to be located next to the 2nd tee and directly behind the 5th green and played 392yards.  The 3rd hole was probably fairly straight and played only 360 versus it being a slightly over 500 yard par 5. Because of the old location of the 3rd green, the 4th was a more angled par 3 of 188 yrds versus a straight 200 yarder.  The total yardage was 5914 playing to a par of 69.  Most notable was that the ladies played the same tees for a par of 77.  Really interesting on the card are rules --"Out of bounds loss of distance only" and "Players must not climb sides of bunkers" The card also prominately mentions replacing divots and leveling footprints in bunkers.  The card also has a line across that is called a stymie measure.

[Gib_Papazian]

I distinctly recall rewriting a long chapter on this subject years ago, but cannot remember if it was included in the Evangelist of Golf.

Kind of sad that I do not have that information off the top of my cabesa any longer.

I'll state that it is my belief Raynor had far more to do with the golf course than Emmett - who was close to C.B. Macdonald.

I base this belief on that fact that Hollins chose Raynor to design Cypress Point and MPCC (Dunes), not Emmett, who certainly had more time on his hands being a bit of an aristocrat.

We all know the sad tale how that turned out, but the fact remains that her first choice was a Southampton surveyor turned course builder to paint a masterpiece . . . . .  

[Robert Mercer Deruntz]

Gib, I am not a Raynor expert, but have played almost every course of his in metro-NY.  There is only one green, and I have played almost every Raynor, MacDonald, Banks course in metro-NY, that could be considered Raynor-like---#8 which kind of has a reverse Redan feature.  If the possibilty of minimalizing Emmett's imput exists, I would be more inclined to attribute architectural features to Flynn.  The course is one of the best routed courses you will ever play and it really has a feel of flowing across the hills.  I really wonder if another great architect would route this course any differently?  I have been fortunate to play most of Emmett's metro-NY courses and believe that he is seriously underappreciated.  He was absolutley brilliant in his green complexes, and Glen Head shares these features!

[TEPaul]

"I base this belief on that fact that Hollins chose Raynor to design Cypress Point and MPCC (Dunes), not Emmett, who certainly had more time on his hands being a bit of an aristocrat.

I came from mid-Long Island, and it seems to me Devereaux Emmet was a lot more popular around that area than most of us may realize. Unfortunately for Emmet's legacy he built a bit too much too close to New York City to survive into the future.

Here's a question about Emmet:

He was a good amateur player and I wonder if he accepted money for his architecture before the USGA created the so-called "architect exception" to amateur playing status which I believe happened in the early 1920s?

[Mike_Cirba]

Tom Paul,

I'm betting that Devvie didn't accept design fees as his family was completely loaded...until the Great Depression, that is.

It's amazing he isn't more heralded.   He designed courses back in the early 1890s thru almost the next 40 years.

Anyone doubting his genius should take an hour or two to walk around Leatherstocking, circa 1909, and remember that this was prior to NGLA, prior to Merion, prior to Pine Valley, and supposedly part of the bleak, geometric period of American design.

Anyone doubting his genius should also realize that he was great buds with CB Macdonald and actually drew all the design sketches of the great holes overseas that Macdonald utilized in building NGLA.   He was also onsite a WHOLE lot during that time.

I dare say that if Macdonald is to be given some modicum of credit for "consulting" at Merion, than Emmett sure as hell deserves a whole lot more than that for what he helped with at NGLA, not to mention the rest of early Long Island golf.

[Gib_Papazian]

Mike,

I was not there, so I'll take your post as factual and not bother to argue the point.

That stated - and I am not minimizing Emmett by any means - why did not Marion Hollins bring him to Cypress Point instead of Raynor?

And though I studied at the feet of the master for years, I really do not know the definitive answer to that question.

[Chris_Blakely]

The chapter on Women's National in George's book is quite minimal when compared the research and depth of the rest of the book.  Several pictures, from the old Golf Illustated, an old scorecard (easily obtained) and a lot of conjecture.  Please remember it was also infered that Leatherstocking could have been a Raynor course to!???  Emmet had a family farm / home right in Cooperstown, but it might be a Raynor, come on!

As for why Emmet was not taken out to California, can anyone name any courses he did west of the Ohio / PA / WV border that he was on site for.  He truly was a man of leisure.  I know he did several courses in the Bermuda / the Bahamas, but he vacationed in those areas.

[Mike_Cirba]

Gib,

My point isn't to diminish Raynor or Macdonald at all, but simply to wonder why Emmett isn't more renowned for his significant contributions to early American golf.

[JMorgan]

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[wsmorrison]

Flynn rarely made courses easier.  Most of the time he was asked to revise courses, sometimes within a few years of opening, it was to make them more challenging to keep up with advances in technology that were not planned for in original designs.

Here is Emmet's sketch and a 1940 aerial.  There are significant differences.  Hollins suggested that it was not going to be followed to the letter in all cases but, "...generally speaking the plan will remain the same as presented."

Emmet Plan



1940 aerial (courtesy of Craig Disher) in small size and low resolution

[JMorgan]

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[TEPaul]

"It's amazing he isn't more heralded.  He designed courses back in the early 1890s thru almost the next 40 years."

MikeC:

What did he design in the early 1890s?

I thought his first course was Island Golf Links (Garden City CC) which apparently began to be layed out in 1897. After that I think all his other courses were in the 20th century.

But I don't know why he isn't either more heralded or at least given credit for being perhaps the first over here to actually design and build what may be defined as the first good golf architecture over here.

Something tells me Emmet and Leeds may've been the first over here with that.

And if that's true, one sure does need to ask where they got their architectural ideas. I'd think it had to be in the linksland or heathlands.

But if it was the latter one also needs to ask if Emmet or Leeds did some really good INLAND architecture even before Willie Park Jr did?    

[JMorgan]

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[Robert Mercer Deruntz]

I posted new pictures of holes 13-17.  Due to the rolling terrain, it is difficult to get a very good picture of the 18th, which could be one of the best finishing holes on Long Island.
Also, they have hired an architect to rework the bunkers.  He is the same guy who recently rebuilt the disasterous Century bunkers--Harvey.  Perhaps someone knows about this architect.

[Sean_Tully]

What was the name of the first all ladies golf club that was started in 1895 on Staten Island? It was a nine hole course in West New-Brighton.

Tully

[Michael Chadwick]

Although this thread now has broken links to its photos, it still features the most--though still limited--discussion of the Long Island club Marion Hollins developed, Women's National.


Recent comments made about the course have been made on the Bahto Evangelist of Golf thread, which I'll copy in below.


What caught my attention today was a Fried Egg video featuring Angela Moser. When asked what her dream project would be, she immediately answered restoring Glen Head Country Club back to the course that Hollins had built with input from CB Macdonald, Seth Raynor, and perhaps principally Devereaux Emmet.


This could be a home run partnership of a female architect bringing attention to one of golf's most consequential developers, with an East Coast location to memorialize Hollins' legacy beyond Cypress Point. Glen Head CC doesn't even appear on the NY State rankings for Golf Digest or Top100golfcourses. The membership could enjoy nothing but upside potential of having a restoration that could reinsert itself into the likes of its neighbors like Piping Rock, the Creek, and Garden City. What's not to love about this possible story?   




Link to video: https://youtu.be/841wyjWQ4C0?si=fGmd-2btXEEpc7y7

I recently finished reading the reprinted edition for the first time, and the details--particularly in the chapters devoted to NGLA--are terrific. It helped flesh out better context behind Macdonald's autobiography. Two immediate questions came to mind: 1) Does anyone know of a good resource online for exploring 1920s-40s aerials of Long Island? I'd be interested in poking around, especially if there are images of the original Deepdale and Links Club.2) This might deserve a separate thread if any historians have more info, but the brief chapter on Glen Head's Womens National Golf Club, founded by Marion Hollins and later acquired (then sold off) by the Creek Club, interested me. Bahto makes a comment that Hollins took her own scouting trip to the UK in anticipation of the club being developed, which has been referenced elsewhere on the DG by Wayne Morrison and more recently Bret Lawrence. Bahto's phrasing implies that she was in search of ideal holes for a woman's game, which may have resulted in an entirely different list of ideal/template holes selected from the UK classics. Were any specific holes from her trips noted anywhere? It'd be interesting to compare differences between Macdonald's ideals and Hollins, if she ever produced such a list.

For question 1 I used to use the Stonybrook University site: https://guides.library.stonybrook.edu/c.php?g=35399&p=224887The various County GIS sites might also have some resourcesPretty sure I'm forgetting something, hopefully someone else can chime in.

In the book "Champion in a Man's World", by David Outerbridge, pages 90-92, it discusses how Hollins left for the UK in search of ideal holes for Women's National Golf and Tennis Club. With the assistance of Cecil Leitch, she played over 20 courses. She documented the trip with notes, sketches, photos and movies. She turned these materials over to Devereaux Emmet who was to design the course. The first hole was reminiscent of the 7th hole at the new course at Walton Heath. The 4th was a copy of the 11th at Northampton. The Principal's Nose made an appearance on the 17th. The 12th hole at Least women's National was fashioned after the 3rd at Mid-Surrey.She and Emmet also looked for inspiration at courses on a Long Island. The 5th at Women's was similar to the 5th at her home course, Westbrook. The 8th was an adaptation of the 5th at NGLA. Lastly, the 11th was a close approximation to the 13th at Piping Rock.The author then explains that rather than use her monster tee shots, she used US Champion Alexa Sterling's 175 yard carry as the fair but testing standard for tee placement.The book is very well researched and an interesting read. A great addition to any golf library. It's kind of hard to believe there has never been any kind of documentary or movie made about this remarkable woman.

Adding in a couple of stories on Women’s National Golf & Tennis Club.  The first story was written by Marion Hollins.  (I borrowed these photos from Sven’s Re-engineering Raynor thread.)Golf Illustrated., January 1923:Golf Illustrated., March 1924:I use the Nassau County GIS viewer to find 1926 aerial photographs from Nassau County, New York:https://lrv.nassaucountyny.gov/map/On the right hand side select: “Layers” tabThen click the second box down to view 1926 Nassau County aerials.Bret

   

[Ryan Book]

A year ago or so when I was canvassing architects and pundits to create a list of the top 25 most "in-demand" restorations, Glen Head came in at No. 19, mostly for the historic reasons you cite, Michael. I kept all those providing feedback anonymous and I honestly can't remember who provided what quotes for what courses, but I included a "panelist" quote for each course.


The entry for Glen Head was "It doesn't just need history to be worth the work."


I believe Flynn also consulted.

Although this thread now has broken links to its photos, it still features the most--though still limited--discussion of the Long Island club Marion Hollins developed, Women's National.


Recent comments made about the course have been made on the Bahto Evangelist of Golf thread, which I'll copy in below.


What caught my attention today was a Fried Egg video featuring Angela Moser. When asked what her dream project would be, she immediately answered restoring Glen Head Country Club back to the course that Hollins had built with input from CB Macdonald, Seth Raynor, and perhaps principally Devereaux Emmet.


This could be a home run partnership of a female architect bringing attention to one of golf's most consequential developers, with an East Coast location to memorialize Hollins' legacy beyond Cypress Point. Glen Head CC doesn't even appear on the NY State rankings for Golf Digest or Top100golfcourses. The membership could enjoy nothing but upside potential of having a restoration that could reinsert itself into the likes of its neighbors like Piping Rock, the Creek, and Garden City. What's not to love about this possible story?   

[Angela Moser]

It was incredible to walk the property last summer and point out the old green sites to the Superintendent, who had no idea about the overgrown sharp humps being that. We shared the 1926 aerial on GE so he could go and explore how big and excellent his greens used to be.


One of my instant favorites from studying the aerial was the Architecture of the 8th hole. The original 8th green is still visibly there but now has a maintenance path through it. It is one of the holes lengthened by moving the green further back and to the left. The original bunkering is gone, but the landforms are still visible. The new green is the " Reversed Redan-ish" green that Robert Mercer Reduntz was referring to.


The course used to have so much more spice. The routing, the former greens (sizes and slopes), and the brilliant bunkering (cross bunkers, angles, distances from tees, placement of them in combination with the slopes, green site bunkering), especially with that amount of topography...


Although on the same land, the par-3 12th hole is relatively new. It used to be a bunker-less par-3 with a diagonal creek in front of the green, but now it has a pond and bunkering. 


I left the property with a bittersweet taste. It was all still there, but it seemed they didn't know or weren't interested in investigating their past. But never say never...

[Michael Chadwick]

It was incredible to walk the property last summer and point out the old green sites to the Superintendent, who had no idea about the overgrown sharp humps being that. We shared the 1926 aerial on GE so he could go and explore how big and excellent his greens used to be.


One of my instant favorites from studying the aerial was the Architecture of the 8th hole. The original 8th green is still visibly there but now has a maintenance path through it. It is one of the holes lengthened by moving the green further back and to the left. The original bunkering is gone, but the landforms are still visible. The new green is the " Reversed Redan-ish" green that Robert Mercer Reduntz was referring to.


The course used to have so much more spice. The routing, the former greens (sizes and slopes), and the brilliant bunkering (cross bunkers, angles, distances from tees, placement of them in combination with the slopes, green site bunkering), especially with that amount of topography...


Although on the same land, the par-3 12th hole is relatively new. It used to be a bunker-less par-3 with a diagonal creek in front of the green, but now it has a pond and bunkering. 


I left the property with a bittersweet taste. It was all still there, but it seemed they didn't know or weren't interested in investigating their past. But never say never...

Pasting in a screen grab of the 1926 aerial from the Nassau County Viewer. If someone has a better version of  the aerial for the thread, please let us know.



1926


Angela--do you think this image predates any modifications Flynn might have made? Wayne Morrison notes in his book, The Nature Faker, that Toomey & Flynn were paid for construction work at the end of 1926 and into 1927. I really have no idea. Part of me thinks that the bunkering in the southwest corner of the property has a scalloped softness more recognizable to Flynn, as if he might have already begun reworking that area, whereas the central and northern area of the course seems more in line with an Emmet/Raynor/Macdonald aesthetic. 


Based on the 1940 image below that Wayne has in his book, it seems that a significant component of Flynn's involvement was lengthening a couple holes west of the clubhouse in the middle area of the property.



1940


The Emmet routing plan, from the Golf Illustrated Jan. 1923, and also referenced in Morrison's book, is only partially helpful, because what's on the ground in 1926 deviates in a number of spots from the drawing.   



Drawn Plan


Long Island is a crowded market with multiple renowned golf clubs. Perhaps Glen Head's green committee and membership can be sold on the idea that restoring the historic version of their course could catapult their club into the same caliber of neighbors who enjoy Top 100 accolades domestically. I have no familiarity with Glen Head as a club, but can only imagine how this kind of project would spark increased local and national membership interest. It is a rare thing for a course to not have lost any of its original land, have such a unique historical foundation to it, yet not want to reclaim its latent potential. What course wouldn't want to be associated with Cypress Point? I hope members of this community can help spur momentum!



Current layout 

[Angela Moser]

Michael:


You can point out the changes between the 1926 and the 1940 aerial:
[/size]
[/size]- the new 8th green has been built. (old 8th green is still visible!)
[/size]- new tees for the 9th.
[/size]- the new 17th green (the old green was inside the fairway)
[/size]- new tees for the 18th.
[/size]- there are definitely some big differences in bunkering added on many holes (1,2,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12,13,14,15,17,18)