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Women's National Golf & Tennis Club
Michael Chadwick:
Although this thread now has broken links to its photos, it still features the most--though still limited--discussion of the Long Island club Marion Hollins developed, Women's National.
Recent comments made about the course have been made on the Bahto Evangelist of Golf thread, which I'll copy in below.
What caught my attention today was a Fried Egg video featuring Angela Moser. When asked what her dream project would be, she immediately answered restoring Glen Head Country Club back to the course that Hollins had built with input from CB Macdonald, Seth Raynor, and perhaps principally Devereaux Emmet.
This could be a home run partnership of a female architect bringing attention to one of golf's most consequential developers, with an East Coast location to memorialize Hollins' legacy beyond Cypress Point. Glen Head CC doesn't even appear on the NY State rankings for Golf Digest or Top100golfcourses. The membership could enjoy nothing but upside potential of having a restoration that could reinsert itself into the likes of its neighbors like Piping Rock, the Creek, and Garden City. What's not to love about this possible story?
Link to video: https://youtu.be/841wyjWQ4C0?si=fGmd-2btXEEpc7y7
--- Quote from: Cal Carlisle on December 18, 2024, 06:50:46 PM ---
--- Quote from: Charlie Goerges on December 18, 2024, 03:08:40 PM ---
--- Quote from: Michael Chadwick on December 18, 2024, 03:01:20 PM ---I recently finished reading the reprinted edition for the first time, and the details--particularly in the chapters devoted to NGLA--are terrific. It helped flesh out better context behind Macdonald's autobiography. Two immediate questions came to mind: 1) Does anyone know of a good resource online for exploring 1920s-40s aerials of Long Island? I'd be interested in poking around, especially if there are images of the original Deepdale and Links Club.2) This might deserve a separate thread if any historians have more info, but the brief chapter on Glen Head's Womens National Golf Club, founded by Marion Hollins and later acquired (then sold off) by the Creek Club, interested me. Bahto makes a comment that Hollins took her own scouting trip to the UK in anticipation of the club being developed, which has been referenced elsewhere on the DG by Wayne Morrison and more recently Bret Lawrence. Bahto's phrasing implies that she was in search of ideal holes for a woman's game, which may have resulted in an entirely different list of ideal/template holes selected from the UK classics. Were any specific holes from her trips noted anywhere? It'd be interesting to compare differences between Macdonald's ideals and Hollins, if she ever produced such a list.
--- End quote ---
For question 1 I used to use the Stonybrook University site: https://guides.library.stonybrook.edu/c.php?g=35399&p=224887The various County GIS sites might also have some resourcesPretty sure I'm forgetting something, hopefully someone else can chime in.
--- End quote ---
In the book "Champion in a Man's World", by David Outerbridge, pages 90-92, it discusses how Hollins left for the UK in search of ideal holes for Women's National Golf and Tennis Club. With the assistance of Cecil Leitch, she played over 20 courses. She documented the trip with notes, sketches, photos and movies. She turned these materials over to Devereaux Emmet who was to design the course. The first hole was reminiscent of the 7th hole at the new course at Walton Heath. The 4th was a copy of the 11th at Northampton. The Principal's Nose made an appearance on the 17th. The 12th hole at Least women's National was fashioned after the 3rd at Mid-Surrey.She and Emmet also looked for inspiration at courses on a Long Island. The 5th at Women's was similar to the 5th at her home course, Westbrook. The 8th was an adaptation of the 5th at NGLA. Lastly, the 11th was a close approximation to the 13th at Piping Rock.The author then explains that rather than use her monster tee shots, she used US Champion Alexa Sterling's 175 yard carry as the fair but testing standard for tee placement.The book is very well researched and an interesting read. A great addition to any golf library. It's kind of hard to believe there has never been any kind of documentary or movie made about this remarkable woman.
--- End quote ---
--- Quote from: Bret Lawrence on December 19, 2024, 08:02:03 AM ---Adding in a couple of stories on Women’s National Golf & Tennis Club. The first story was written by Marion Hollins. (I borrowed these photos from Sven’s Re-engineering Raynor thread.)Golf Illustrated., January 1923:Golf Illustrated., March 1924:I use the Nassau County GIS viewer to find 1926 aerial photographs from Nassau County, New York:https://lrv.nassaucountyny.gov/map/On the right hand side select: “Layers” tabThen click the second box down to view 1926 Nassau County aerials.Bret
--- End quote ---
Ryan Book:
A year ago or so when I was canvassing architects and pundits to create a list of the top 25 most "in-demand" restorations, Glen Head came in at No. 19, mostly for the historic reasons you cite, Michael. I kept all those providing feedback anonymous and I honestly can't remember who provided what quotes for what courses, but I included a "panelist" quote for each course.
The entry for Glen Head was "It doesn't just need history to be worth the work."
I believe Flynn also consulted.
--- Quote from: Michael Chadwick on January 14, 2025, 04:39:28 PM ---Although this thread now has broken links to its photos, it still features the most--though still limited--discussion of the Long Island club Marion Hollins developed, Women's National.
Recent comments made about the course have been made on the Bahto Evangelist of Golf thread, which I'll copy in below.
What caught my attention today was a Fried Egg video featuring Angela Moser. When asked what her dream project would be, she immediately answered restoring Glen Head Country Club back to the course that Hollins had built with input from CB Macdonald, Seth Raynor, and perhaps principally Devereaux Emmet.
This could be a home run partnership of a female architect bringing attention to one of golf's most consequential developers, with an East Coast location to memorialize Hollins' legacy beyond Cypress Point. Glen Head CC doesn't even appear on the NY State rankings for Golf Digest or Top100golfcourses. The membership could enjoy nothing but upside potential of having a restoration that could reinsert itself into the likes of its neighbors like Piping Rock, the Creek, and Garden City. What's not to love about this possible story?
--- End quote ---
Angela Moser:
It was incredible to walk the property last summer and point out the old green sites to the Superintendent, who had no idea about the overgrown sharp humps being that. We shared the 1926 aerial on GE so he could go and explore how big and excellent his greens used to be.
One of my instant favorites from studying the aerial was the Architecture of the 8th hole. The original 8th green is still visibly there but now has a maintenance path through it. It is one of the holes lengthened by moving the green further back and to the left. The original bunkering is gone, but the landforms are still visible. The new green is the " Reversed Redan-ish" green that Robert Mercer Reduntz was referring to.
The course used to have so much more spice. The routing, the former greens (sizes and slopes), and the brilliant bunkering (cross bunkers, angles, distances from tees, placement of them in combination with the slopes, green site bunkering), especially with that amount of topography...
Although on the same land, the par-3 12th hole is relatively new. It used to be a bunker-less par-3 with a diagonal creek in front of the green, but now it has a pond and bunkering. :-X
I left the property with a bittersweet taste. It was all still there, but it seemed they didn't know or weren't interested in investigating their past. But never say never...
Michael Chadwick:
--- Quote from: Angela Moser on January 16, 2025, 05:35:30 PM ---It was incredible to walk the property last summer and point out the old green sites to the Superintendent, who had no idea about the overgrown sharp humps being that. We shared the 1926 aerial on GE so he could go and explore how big and excellent his greens used to be.
One of my instant favorites from studying the aerial was the Architecture of the 8th hole. The original 8th green is still visibly there but now has a maintenance path through it. It is one of the holes lengthened by moving the green further back and to the left. The original bunkering is gone, but the landforms are still visible. The new green is the " Reversed Redan-ish" green that Robert Mercer Reduntz was referring to.
The course used to have so much more spice. The routing, the former greens (sizes and slopes), and the brilliant bunkering (cross bunkers, angles, distances from tees, placement of them in combination with the slopes, green site bunkering), especially with that amount of topography...
Although on the same land, the par-3 12th hole is relatively new. It used to be a bunker-less par-3 with a diagonal creek in front of the green, but now it has a pond and bunkering. :-X
I left the property with a bittersweet taste. It was all still there, but it seemed they didn't know or weren't interested in investigating their past. But never say never...
--- End quote ---
Pasting in a screen grab of the 1926 aerial from the Nassau County Viewer. If someone has a better version of the aerial for the thread, please let us know.
1926
Angela--do you think this image predates any modifications Flynn might have made? Wayne Morrison notes in his book, The Nature Faker, that Toomey & Flynn were paid for construction work at the end of 1926 and into 1927. I really have no idea. Part of me thinks that the bunkering in the southwest corner of the property has a scalloped softness more recognizable to Flynn, as if he might have already begun reworking that area, whereas the central and northern area of the course seems more in line with an Emmet/Raynor/Macdonald aesthetic.
Based on the 1940 image below that Wayne has in his book, it seems that a significant component of Flynn's involvement was lengthening a couple holes west of the clubhouse in the middle area of the property.
1940
The Emmet routing plan, from the Golf Illustrated Jan. 1923, and also referenced in Morrison's book, is only partially helpful, because what's on the ground in 1926 deviates in a number of spots from the drawing.
Drawn Plan
Long Island is a crowded market with multiple renowned golf clubs. Perhaps Glen Head's green committee and membership can be sold on the idea that restoring the historic version of their course could catapult their club into the same caliber of neighbors who enjoy Top 100 accolades domestically. I have no familiarity with Glen Head as a club, but can only imagine how this kind of project would spark increased local and national membership interest. It is a rare thing for a course to not have lost any of its original land, have such a unique historical foundation to it, yet not want to reclaim its latent potential. What course wouldn't want to be associated with Cypress Point? I hope members of this community can help spur momentum!
Current layout
Angela Moser:
Michael:
You can point out the changes between the 1926 and the 1940 aerial:
[/size]
[/size]- the new 8th green has been built. (old 8th green is still visible!)
[/size]- new tees for the 9th.
[/size]- the new 17th green (the old green was inside the fairway)
[/size]- new tees for the 18th.
[/size]- there are definitely some big differences in bunkering added on many holes (1,2,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12,13,14,15,17,18)
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