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Women's National Golf & Tennis Club
Robert Mercer Deruntz:
I was fortunate to view an original scorecard. Of note, the routing is pretty much the same--only two holes have siginficantly different yardages--#1 and #3. The first green used to be located next to the 2nd tee and directly behind the 5th green and played 392yards. The 3rd hole was probably fairly straight and played only 360 versus it being a slightly over 500 yard par 5. Because of the old location of the 3rd green, the 4th was a more angled par 3 of 188 yrds versus a straight 200 yarder. The total yardage was 5914 playing to a par of 69. Most notable was that the ladies played the same tees for a par of 77. Really interesting on the card are rules --"Out of bounds loss of distance only" and "Players must not climb sides of bunkers" The card also prominately mentions replacing divots and leveling footprints in bunkers. The card also has a line across that is called a stymie measure.
Gib_Papazian:
I distinctly recall rewriting a long chapter on this subject years ago, but cannot remember if it was included in the Evangelist of Golf.
Kind of sad that I do not have that information off the top of my cabesa any longer.
I'll state that it is my belief Raynor had far more to do with the golf course than Emmett - who was close to C.B. Macdonald.
I base this belief on that fact that Hollins chose Raynor to design Cypress Point and MPCC (Dunes), not Emmett, who certainly had more time on his hands being a bit of an aristocrat.
We all know the sad tale how that turned out, but the fact remains that her first choice was a Southampton surveyor turned course builder to paint a masterpiece . . . . .
Robert Mercer Deruntz:
Gib, I am not a Raynor expert, but have played almost every course of his in metro-NY. There is only one green, and I have played almost every Raynor, MacDonald, Banks course in metro-NY, that could be considered Raynor-like---#8 which kind of has a reverse Redan feature. If the possibilty of minimalizing Emmett's imput exists, I would be more inclined to attribute architectural features to Flynn. The course is one of the best routed courses you will ever play and it really has a feel of flowing across the hills. I really wonder if another great architect would route this course any differently? I have been fortunate to play most of Emmett's metro-NY courses and believe that he is seriously underappreciated. He was absolutley brilliant in his green complexes, and Glen Head shares these features!
TEPaul:
"I base this belief on that fact that Hollins chose Raynor to design Cypress Point and MPCC (Dunes), not Emmett, who certainly had more time on his hands being a bit of an aristocrat.
I came from mid-Long Island, and it seems to me Devereaux Emmet was a lot more popular around that area than most of us may realize. Unfortunately for Emmet's legacy he built a bit too much too close to New York City to survive into the future.
Here's a question about Emmet:
He was a good amateur player and I wonder if he accepted money for his architecture before the USGA created the so-called "architect exception" to amateur playing status which I believe happened in the early 1920s?
Mike_Cirba:
Tom Paul,
I'm betting that Devvie didn't accept design fees as his family was completely loaded...until the Great Depression, that is.
It's amazing he isn't more heralded. He designed courses back in the early 1890s thru almost the next 40 years.
Anyone doubting his genius should take an hour or two to walk around Leatherstocking, circa 1909, and remember that this was prior to NGLA, prior to Merion, prior to Pine Valley, and supposedly part of the bleak, geometric period of American design.
Anyone doubting his genius should also realize that he was great buds with CB Macdonald and actually drew all the design sketches of the great holes overseas that Macdonald utilized in building NGLA. He was also onsite a WHOLE lot during that time.
I dare say that if Macdonald is to be given some modicum of credit for "consulting" at Merion, than Emmett sure as hell deserves a whole lot more than that for what he helped with at NGLA, not to mention the rest of early Long Island golf.
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