GolfClubAtlas.com > Golf Course Architecture Discussion Group
Women's National Golf & Tennis Club
TEPaul:
Marion Hollins essentially started the Womens National golf club. Apparently the idea for it came from Hollins.
For those who aren't much aware of Marion Hollins, she was one helluva athlete in more sports than just golf. In golf, she won the US Amateur championship.
For a few months I had the book that contained the origins of the Womens National right here at home. This was not a book written about the club, it was the Womens National GC's own book containing all the papers of its origins. Unfortunately it had nothing about the architecture of the golf course---it only contained reams and reams of legal documents containing incorporation papers and membership rolls and things pertaining to membership.
I grew up in Glen Head, Long Island about five miles from the Womens National and if there is anything I really do recognize its those names contained on those membership rolls of the Womens National.
The fact is just about every single big time name in Long Island from that time is contained in those early membership rolls. It's amazing.
And the other thing that's really amazing to me is just how independent some of those women like Marion Hollins and those on those membership rolls were in relation to golf at that time. They were 1000 percent more independent than women are today in golf.
I don't really know why that was----whether it was because they understood they just weren't very welcome in some other clubs compared to today and for that reason they just went out and did their own independent thing in this way back then.
The fact is the very idea of strictly women's golf courses was so much more prevalent back then compared to today.
Rand Jerris, the USGA Museum/Library director has also said he is just amazed at how much went on in strictly women's golf in America in the 1920s and the 1930s.
In the 1940s the Women's National GC wasn't making it and because of its close connection to The Creek Club it became incorporated into The Creek Club.
I'll have to check my records but at that time I think the combined operation was known as "The Forest Creek Club".
Shortly after that The Creek Club sold the club and course formerly known as The Womens National and I guess at that point it became the Glen Head GC.
Surprisingly, there are some older generation people in Long Island today such as my uncle who are still furious at The Creek Club and some significant members like Irving (or was it Charles?) Pratt for being responsible for dumping the Womens National and selling it. They feel a really wonderful, significant and obvious unique (being just women) club got sold down the river by The Creek Club in Locust Valley.
However, long before that point, I think we all know the real principle of the club, Marion Hollins, had moved to California and was on to other things in golf and architecture.
We can also definitely put C.B. Macdonald on site at the creation of Women's National, even if we can't tell what he contributed to the design of the course.
But according to some, and even some in California, if you can put Macdonald on site in a golf project, even for a day or two, than logically that golf course should probably be attributed to Macdonald architecturally. ;)
Some of the details of the creation and design of the Womens National are shrouded in time and they're mysterious now. But one thing I think I can say with 100% certainty is that even if he wanted to or tried to, C.B probably never "got it on", so to speak, with Marion Hollins, for a variety of reasons.
Another piece of trivia is Devie Emmet actually served as the secretary to the Womens National for a time. :)
By the way, C.B. Macdonald had a rather huge residence in Roslyn, Long Island back then, and Roslyn is right next to Glen Head.
grandwazo:
I'll chime and say that I've played this course many times over the years and generally enjoyed the round. The course, even with all the trees has always been in excellent condition, especially the greens which always roll consistent speed wise and true.
There are at least two holes that I believe are new (maybe 11 and 12), and don't date back to the original design, not sure of the hole numbers but they are on either side of the entrance, a short downhill par 4 that is driveable and a mid length par three with a water hazard down the right side that does not always have water in it. I think at some point the club sold property to what turned out to be an industrial park, hence the new holes. There is also a condo development along another perimeter, I believe the land for this also came from the club, but not at the expense of any holes.
The thing that always struck me about the course, even before I knew it's history as the "women's course" for Creek members was that everything seemed "small" in scale, the greens, the bunkers, the fairways and only a few holes, including the 1st and 18th seemed to have any feel with regards to length. Kind of "dainty", but elegant and at heart, a course for women. I give the founders and the designers credit for capturing that.
The club has had a resurgence with its membership, adding a beautiful pool facility along with upgrades to its clubhouse...it's sad, but that's what it takes in this market to remain competitive. On the positive side, the course has not had to take second bill and continues to be cared for in a positive, nuturing manner.
Last point I would make, and I have mentioned it before, it is amazing to me how many courses in this area seem to have "template" holes that don't relate to anything from Scotland, but are defined by the terrain and how many different designers ended up designing the same holes to accomodate this. Fresh Meadow, Deepdale, Meadowbrook, etc to mention a few, alll have holes that you could not tell which course you were on. Don't get me wrong, good holes, but interchangeable.
wsmorrison:
JMorgan,
Do the holes out there today (other than a couple that were apparently redesigned) match the holes on the list you cited? You say the course was originally designed as two nines and opened with 18 holes in 1924. What do you think Flynn was paid more than $15,000 to do in 1927/27?
I'll take a close look at Craig's photograph and see if I see if the 1940 iteration of the course corresponds to the holes as you describe. Can you please tell me where you obtained your information. Again, I ask you, did you come across anything about Flynn in your research?
TEPaul:
"The thing that always struck me about the course, even before I knew it's history as the "women's course" for Creek members was that everything seemed "small" in scale, the greens, the bunkers, the fairways and only a few holes, including the 1st and 18th seemed to have any feel with regards to length. Kind of "dainty", but elegant and at heart, a course for women. I give the founders and the designers credit for capturing that."
jsiskind:
You should know that there was definitely nothing dainty about Marion Hollins although apparently there was something quite dainty about little Devie Emmet.
As for Macdonald at that point---it's probably hard to say although by the mid 1920s he may've become a bit conflicted. And that may've been the reason he decided to resign from The Creek Club and hie on out into the middle of the Atlantic to his cottage to write his book.
Wayne_Kozun:
How many Women only golf clubs are there these days? There is one here in Toronto (Ladies' Golf Club of Toronto) that was designed by Stanley Thompson.
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