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Doug Wright

  • Karma: +0/-0
Rees On Bethpage Et Al
« on: June 13, 2002, 01:44:46 PM »
Rees Jones was just on the Open webcast @ USOpen.com with Roger Twibell and Charlie Rymer for about a half hour. The discussion was much more comprehensive re architecture and the work Rees has done than anything I've heard on network/cable TV and was interesting to me because I haven't been as close to the work on the Black as perhaps many of you are.

Some of the things discussed (somewhat stream of consciousness as I didn't transcribe it word for word):

He said quite a few things about Tillinghast. Twibell asked Rees what he used in finding out about Tillinghast  and the course design and Rees said they had one aerial of the course from 1938. He said they used Winged Foor as a model and he also mentioned Baltusrol and Quaker Ridge. They "flashed up" the bunkers to resemble the Tinnghast "sculptured look."  Rees was quite complimentary of Tilly, calling him "the most creative bunker builder of his time." He said a couple of times what a wonderful "unbelievable piece of property" and "spectacular routing" it is, with natural greensites. He said Tillinghast said he made the course a "mankiller"--in Tilly's words--because there were three other courses that "mortals could play." BTW, no mention of the "other" alleged architect of the Black.

Overall, he said the work was like what he did @ the Country Club, where the course was on a "downward slide" and needed "restoration and reconstruction." He also said they "revamped the course for modern play."

Rees said they didn't try to make every hole hard, wanted to make the players manage their games and make choices, using the par 5 4th as an example. when asked aobut the 18th, he said that was the hole they did the most work on, shrinking the landing zone and the green. He hoped it would be a "swing hole."

Re Torrey Pines,  Rymer asked what he thought the chances were for it hosting the Open and Rees said "This week helps the chances" and "bodes well" as a public course with facilities and commitment from a local community (San Diego) to make it happen.

There was a discussion of "where are we going" with the length, technology and fitness etc. Rees said the USGA protects its courses through the rough and requires the players to manage their games and it's "a question for the PGA Tour" to deal with. He said he hopes that the ball is at its optimum but sounded dubious that it is.

When asked about other projects he's working on, Rees replied "Baltusrol, particularly redoing the 14th and 11th, Medinah and another 18 at Atlanta Athletic Club."  

All in all it was a pretty comprehensive interview and discussion, and although there were some encomiums from Twibell and Rymer to Rees they seemed prepared and asked some good questions. I don't know if they archive these things on the USOpen.com website but in general that's what I heard.

All the Best,
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
Twitter: @Deneuchre

A_Clay_Man

Re: Rees On Bethpage Et Al
« Reply #1 on: June 13, 2002, 02:05:21 PM »
Rees was on NBC's Today show and he mentioned the lengthening, twice.

Also,

Why would he mention Brubeck after Tom MacWood's insightful piece posted here yesterday?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

John_D._Bernhardt

Re: Rees On Bethpage Et Al
« Reply #2 on: June 13, 2002, 03:20:22 PM »
This whole Open Doctor Bull S... gives me the trots!! I do not know if i can take another week of self promotion from Rees and the media.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

A_Clay_Man

Re: Rees On Bethpage Et Al
« Reply #3 on: June 13, 2002, 03:22:48 PM »
Rees was just on the espn coverage complete with before photos and during construction photos. He was all about Tillie and when the question came up if he sent his crew to winged foot he concurred that he wanted them to get the feel of how Tillie had  conceptualize the depth that A. W. Had intended at Pine Valley.

any thoughts?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Doug Wright

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rees On Bethpage Et Al
« Reply #4 on: June 13, 2002, 03:23:18 PM »
Mark,

I didn't hear that...and I ain't going there... ;)

All The Best,
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
Twitter: @Deneuchre

Matt Kardash

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rees On Bethpage Et Al
« Reply #5 on: June 13, 2002, 05:04:15 PM »
winged foot's bunkers look so much better and more natural...thats all i have to say..i think the doctor should go back and take the PH.D exam again if you know what i mean..hehe
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
the interviewer asked beck how he felt "being the bob dylan of the 90's" and beck quitely responded "i actually feel more like the bon jovi of the 60's"

brad_miller

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rees On Bethpage Et Al
« Reply #6 on: June 13, 2002, 05:19:06 PM »
How cool would it be if the bunkers looked natural, too bad. But the publicity is all self fufilling, Rees "you the man"

The is one large strike against the work of the new golden age restorers.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Rees On Bethpage Et Al
« Reply #7 on: June 13, 2002, 06:28:51 PM »
username,

which bunkers at Winged Foot look better ?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Tom MacWood (Guest)

Re: Rees On Bethpage Et Al
« Reply #8 on: June 13, 2002, 06:39:08 PM »
I've heard the Winged Foot story now about half a dozen times. Do you think Tillinghast was going for WF when he was designing Bethpage? Did the boys at McDonald & Sons succeed in capturing the WF look they were going for? I don't think so, in fact of these guys were hired by WF to rebuild its bunkers and the bunkers turned out like that, there would be a revolt.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

GeoffreyC

Re: Rees On Bethpage Et Al
« Reply #9 on: June 13, 2002, 09:06:04 PM »
Rees did redo the bunkers at Quaker Ridge.  Rees did redo the bunkers at Baltusrol.  There was no revolt. Are members at these courses less tasteful and discerning then the WF members?

Did the bunkers at Fenway turn out infinitely better when Gil Hanse did the restoration?  YES.  I am extremely happy for the members that get to enjoy that great place that also looks great.

Still Tom- where do get your information about revolts? The evidence from QR and Baltusrol would seem to go against your idea.

All this crap about the Bethpage bunkers is just that- crap.  The course is amazing and plays beautifully.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:06 PM by -1 »

Paul Turner

Re: Rees On Bethpage Et Al
« Reply #10 on: June 13, 2002, 09:18:47 PM »
I thought the bunkers looked much worse from aerial view than at playing height.  You just don't see the exagerated, weird shapes at eye level. And because they are so big, you tend to see just parts of the bunkers; so that often the single large bunker, will look like a couple or more ( this is most obvious in the 10th, 11th and 18th area).  The fescue also blurs out the hard edges which are again more obvious from aerials.

The bunkers at the 5th and 7th do look different from the rest, I guess partly because these were changed the least, and also because they are on very flat ground. Was the original bunker between 10th and 11th similar?

Overall, I thought the current bunkers were mostly fine; but this doesn't mean that the course was "restored" in sympathy with Tillinghast's style(s).    
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Tom MacWood (Guest)

Re: Rees On Bethpage Et Al
« Reply #11 on: June 13, 2002, 09:38:56 PM »
Geoffrey
Do you think the bunkers at Bethpage are accurate represetations of WF? Pine Valley? Atlantic? Bethpage?

I'm not familar with his work at Quaker Ridge, which bunkers at QR did he rebuild?

At Baltusrol did he rebuild Tillinghast's bunkers or his fathers or both? Did he restore the 'Sahara'?

When remodelling QR and Baltusrol did he send the crew to Five Farms and Fenway?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

GeoffreyC

Re: Rees On Bethpage Et Al
« Reply #12 on: June 13, 2002, 09:47:22 PM »
You didn't answer my question.  Where did you get your information that there would be a revolt?

Rees did a great deal of bunker work (most of them if I'm not mistaken before the Walker Cup) at QR.  Where were the complaints and revolts.

Rees if I'm not mistaken did many bunkers before the last open at Baltusrol.  Where was the revolt?

Fenway's work came after the QR and Baltusrol work.  You should have known that.

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Bruceski

Re: Rees On Bethpage Et Al
« Reply #13 on: June 13, 2002, 09:53:53 PM »
I think the Bethpage Black bunkers look great. Isn't this all very subjective? Further, when altering the bunker shapes, did Rees Jones alter the way the course is played? If he did, is the course worse for it?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

GeoffreyC

Re: Rees On Bethpage Et Al
« Reply #14 on: June 13, 2002, 10:13:40 PM »
Bruceski

Tom MacWood apparently has a vendetta against the work that Rees did at Bethpage yet he has never seen or played the course in person.

Has Tom MacWood bothered to ask those individuals who have been playing the course for the past 35 years which version they prefer to play?  No.  If he asked me I would say in a heartbeat that I prefer to play the post-Rees/USGA version.  

Which do you prefer to play? Anyone else out there who plays the course (pre and post Rees) want to say they prefer to play the old pre Rees version?

How long do you think the 1938 version of Bethpage lasted?  Was it "evolving" like Merion into a better course or was it simply being neglected and run down?  By 1969, the first time I saw Bethpage Black,  had it "evolved" through the love and care of individuals like the Valentines and Bill Kittleman (the Merion example) or had it turned into something much worse then it had been?  Trying to compare Bethpage Black as Tom MacWood is attempting to do, with Merion, Riviera, or Yale is simply not comparable examples.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:06 PM by -1 »

Tom MacWood (Guest)

Re: Rees On Bethpage Et Al
« Reply #15 on: June 13, 2002, 10:16:52 PM »
Geoffrey
Do you think it would have mattered when the restoration took place or if it came at all -- after all he was trying to remodel Bethpage using WF as a model?

The point I was trying to make with the revolt comment is
they look nothing like WF much less the original Bethpage. I invented the revolt comment, although I don't think the WF membership would appreciate new bunkering with mulitple whale's tales and abrupt tongues -- then again abrupt tongues doesn't sound so bad.

What is your philosophy when restoring the works of great architects? Site sensative?

Bruceski
I agree it is subjective. I was commenting on the WF comparision, not necessarily on their current look.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Paul Richards

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rees On Bethpage Et Al
« Reply #16 on: June 14, 2002, 04:17:25 AM »
Doug:

I also saw parts of that interview with Rees, and my initial
thought on what I heard was that he was very complimentary
to Tillinghast and that he felt he had done a faithful
representation of the bunkers of this great master.

He sounded very sincere about it, and I didn't notice all that
much self-promotion.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
"Something has to change, otherwise the never-ending arms race that benefits only a few manufacturers will continue to lead to longer courses, narrower fairways, smaller greens, more rough, more expensive rounds, and other mechanisms that will leave golf's future in doubt." -  TFOG

Tom MacWood (Guest)

Re: Rees On Bethpage Et Al
« Reply #17 on: June 14, 2002, 04:48:02 AM »
Geoffrey
From your description I'd probably prefer to play the course post Rees. But if you included in the choices the golf course as it existed in its first couple decades, I'd choose the original course.

In my mind there is a difference between evaluating the quality of a golf course (which involves many factors), evaluating the improved condition of a golf course (which can be dramatic in some cases) and evaluating the historical accuracy of restoration work. I understand many people could care less about the accurate representation of the restoration, especially if the course remains a great test and the conditioning is markedly improved -- many could care less about that part of architecture.

In the case of Bethpage because the condition is so much better and because the course remains a great test (and also because many people like the aesthetics of the new work), it appears to me there is less of an interest in judging the architectural details and if they reflect Tillinghast.

Would it have been impossible to restore the course accurately? If so why? Was there a good reason why they needed to interject a new style over Tillinghast's? (These questions should not be construed as a crticism of the current quality of the course)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

guest

Re: Rees On Bethpage Et Al
« Reply #18 on: June 14, 2002, 04:58:25 AM »
Tom, you have it spot on in my book, but 99.50% of the population will not get your point. The "renovated" bunkers play as a hazard, they just don't look like natural hazards in the classical sense, particuarly from the air.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

TEPaul

Re: Rees On Bethpage Et Al
« Reply #19 on: June 14, 2002, 04:58:43 AM »
I don't know what the bunkers of Bethpage had "evolved" into or what they looked like pre-Open. Well I guess I do to a degree following the get together last year in Atlantic City when Craig Currier gave his Bethpage presentation (GeoffShac was also on the panel).

According to Currier (and as evidenced by some of his photos) the bunkers of Bethpage had "evolved" into quite a mess! They sure did need something.

Who among us knows what a restoration of Bethpage bunkers really should have been? Are there some good aerials from the 1930s? And after all this controversy over who actually designed the Black, who knows how much time and detailed effort Tillinghast actually put into the original bunkers of Bethpage?

The bunker schemes of Bethpage seem fairly obvious, I suppose, but were they ever really some of Tillinghast's best in detail and such?

I heard Rees Jones too yesterday and he appeared to say that he wanted to recreate the basic "scale" and such of Tillinghast bunkering! For that he looked to Winged Foot for some reason--obviously to him they're wonderful Tillinghast bunkering of large scale and obvious and visible "upsweeps" of sand which is another thing Rees mentioned he was looking to recreate! For that he sent some of the bunker contractors to Winged Foot to analyze their bunkers.

The interior "lines" of the Bethpage bunkering (where the grass meets the sand) is of a more gradual albeit somewhat random flow than some other original Tillinghast bunkering I've seen--check out the photo of #11 San Francisco G.C. on p. 79 of GeoffShac's "Golden Age of Golf Design".

The interior "lines" on that bunkering is clearly far more handworked in its detail than the Rees bunkers of Bethpage but did Bethpage's bunkers ever look like those of San Francisco? Why do the bunkers in that SF photo look more handworked in detail? Obviously because they were!

Again, I don't know what the original bunkers of Bethpage looked like in detail but what was done doesn't really bother me! I think being MacDonald bunkers they look a bit less "puffy" in their overall surrounds and in many of the capes than some of the other MacDonald bunkers I've seen but part of that could be for another interesting reason.

At least half of the surrounds, the parts of the surrounds on the rough side as opposed to the fairway side have some pretty interesting fescue on them instead of all blue grass that tends to make the capes and surrounds look "puffier"!

In other words that fescue tends to hide some of the less handworked detail on those bunkers and tends to make them look a bit more rugged.

As for Rees promoting himself yesterday as the "Open Doctor" and such--maybe I saw the wrong interview. I know Rees and he seemed very serious in that interview--almost dour really and when that interviewer mentioned Rees as "the Open Doctor" I don't remember Rees saying a thing--he just sort of looked at the interviewer and all I heard was something like "umm".
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

John_D._Bernhardt

Re: Rees On Bethpage Et Al
« Reply #20 on: June 14, 2002, 07:40:56 AM »
I will agree that Rees handled the ESPN interview with grace and the style becoming to the game for our National Championship. Notwithstanding, such things as him being called the Open doctor are prescripted and it is obvious this is all promotion. However, there have also been unlimited other appearances and his Open Doctor promotion blitz is on. His annual gross revenue would not buy the free time he is getting. One cannot fault him for trying to improve his fees and business. But, the USGA should not have let this become a one man hype event. They have some real control over content and could kill this Open doctor BS fast. The USGA should not be in the business of promoting one man's career in a profession which can only be stronger with market where the best rise to the top based on ability not friendships and institutional support. Many of the architects whose work we find so compelling are going to be shut out of many high profile projects for years because of the damage done todate.
Again this is not just Rees, it ingrains the feeling that only hype oriented architects do superior work and makes it even tougher for a lesser known but equally talented person to break in. Ultimately this person of talent may go in another direction to support his family. This often happens in fields where the talent cannot find work and lesser people thrive. The USGA should be embassed and stop it now!! Rees is a good archtiect and deserves to opportunity to work on good projects. But He is not the best in his field and sure as hell is not a quantitative leap better than any of the better men/women who are in that profession. This has to stop now!!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

GeoffreyC

Re: Rees On Bethpage Et Al
« Reply #21 on: June 14, 2002, 08:32:22 AM »
Tom- I would undoubtedly prefer the original course at Bethpage as well.  

However, the instructions by the USGA who provided the funds for the project were to prepare the course for a US Open and (I assume) make it a better place for the customers to play.  I don’t think one of the choices was to do a faithful restoration. The USGA paid the bills.

I’m also fairly certain that I would prefer to play the Cypress Point found in the photos in Geoff Shakleford’s wonderful book compared to the Cypress Point of today (again based on photos alone- unlike Huckaby, I have not played CP  :) ). The "walk in the park test" would go from a 10 out of ten to a 12 out of 10.   In the case of Bethpage, we have a golf course that was improved by the work done while an argument can be made that Cypress Point is not as good a course today after work was done (or evolution and mother nature got) to their dunes and bunkers.  I think Tom Paul has stated (based on pictures) that CP might be a course that was at its best from the very beginning. Why then do we/you not roast the work done at CP over the years as unlike Bethpage, it did not improve the course found at the time the work was initiated but instead detracted?  I think the answer is in practicality of restoring very fragile sand dunes and frilly edged bunkers.  Even at a place like CP with very little play, mother-nature is hard to keep in check.  I believe that would have been the case at Bethpage as well had frilly or wild dunes-like representations of bunkers been recreated. Herds of elephants in the clothing of the golfing public trample through the place from dawn to dusk day after day at Bethpage.  Its that simple- in my mind anyway.

I’m very much in favor of sensitive restorations as many of you out there know.  Fenway is the greatest Tillinghast restoration I have seen and I am certainly its biggest fan.  It both greatly improved the course and importantly to me looks absolutely stunning.

Recent work at Yale done by Rulewich has created a course that I don’t like as much as before the work.  The course plays much differently and much for the worse in my opinion.  I’ve seen the work at Riviera (but not before) and I’ve seen photos of the before version and I think the Fazio work has detracted from the design and playability. That’s the difference in my opinion between these examples and Bethpage.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Rees On Bethpage Et Al
« Reply #22 on: June 14, 2002, 10:13:46 AM »
Geoffrey C,

It's amazing how one's bias affects their interpretation of a statement.  They hear what they want, to the exclusion of everything else.

Bethpage's bunkers were NEVER intended to look LIKE Winged Foot's bunkers.

The SCALE of the golf courses is dramatically different.
The SCALE of their bunkers is dramatically different.
If one took Winged Foot's bunkers and placed them onto Bethpage, the result would not be positive, aesthetically, strategically, and from that most important perspective, playability.

IF Rees made the bunkers at Bethpage exactly like the bunkers at Winged Foot, the same people would be criticizing that ill conceived idea as well.  Bunkers, according to this astute group, have to fit the land, and Geoffrey, since you've played Winged Foot and Bethpage, you know that Winged Foot's bunkers don't fit the land at Bethpage, but then again, you've only played Bethpage a zillion times, how can you know more than someone who has never been there and never played the golf course ?

The other part of the typically non-researched attack, is that they make the assumption that the golf club mandated a pure restoration, when nothing could be further from the truth.
But, they know more about the project, despite never having been to the course, never having played the course, and never having been privy to the membership meetings or plans regarding the course.

Geoffrey, don't you know that they speak for the membership, and know the exact intent of the golf course projects that Rees undertakes.

I also have to laugh at Tom MacWood's allegation about the dis-satisfaction of the Members at Baltusrol, Hollywood and other courses.  He is so WRONG it's laughable, and it shows the extent he will go to in his attempt to disparage Rees.

Geoffrey, you will notice that his research in this area is non-existent, and based upon his personal, biased opinion, alone.
And, Geoffrey, you have to remember, Tom MacWood has never seen these courses, but makes his pronouncements, nonetheless.  The hallmark of good, thorough research !
His credibility in speaking for the membership of golf courses he's never played is ZERO, so don't take it too seriously.

The other joke is that many were touting Burbeck, not Tillinghast for Bunker design and construction, and now the're saying Rees didn't duplicate Tillinghast's work.  Hey, guys, get consistent in your position.

Then, Geoffrey, the photo experts first complained about the look of the crisp bunkers when pictures were posted a year or two ago, and now, that the bunkers have their prefered rough look around the edges, it's to camoflage the lack of handwork
Sounds like a hand job to me Geoffrey.

But, Geoffrey, I've come to a different conclusion.

I'm going to play and enjoy Baltusrol, Hollywood, Atlantic, The Country Club, Congressional, Bethpage Black and Quaker Ridge.  If you care to join me, we can have some good laughs, and enjoy these terrible golf courses.

John Bernhardt,

You should be certain of your facts before making a critical remark.

The "CLUB", not the USGA determines the architect of choice.

You should not take Rees to task because a club chooses him Nor should you take him to task because he graciously accepts interviews from the media, and THEY choose to label him as the Open Doctor.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Tom MacWood (Guest)

Re: Rees On Bethpage Et Al
« Reply #23 on: June 14, 2002, 11:56:47 AM »
Geoffrey
If Cypress Point or Yale were remodeled and they chose to ignore the original design I would have the same reaction. Lets ingnore the modern contruction methods that created a certain look, let us assume they had no choice from a practical standpoint, they determined that they had to build the bunkers in this way because of time constraints and future maintenance considerations. We'll take the modern surrounds off the table of discussion.

Lets assume all that, it still doesn't explain why he chose to build such nonTillinghast-like bunkers with pronounced capes and bays, abrupt tongues and whales tales. These bunkers (many of them greenside) bear no resemblance to anything that existed prior and bear no resemblance to Tillinghast's other designs. It does however resemble other Rees designs (and his work at Hollywood), as Whitten acknowledged on the Golf Digest web site.

I'm certain Bethpage plays better today, it must be like night and day. But from a purely architectural standpoint and as someone who appreciates Tillinghast's work, I'm disapointed he chose to ignore much of the '38 aerial in rebuilding/redesigning one of Tillie's greatest designs.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Bob_Huntley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rees On Bethpage Et Al
« Reply #24 on: June 14, 2002, 12:33:26 PM »
John Bernardt:

I have always found Rees Jones to be modest and unassuming. He does what he says he is going to do,on time,on(or under)budget and a thoroughly good job.

Sometimes I wonder about the obloquy.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »