What would make you buy a golf course?

[JMorgan]

I casually troll the golf course sales listings and auctions with the daft notion that I will actually buy a course and disrupt my family's otherwise quiescently satisfying existence.  

Today, however, I received a sales notice for a particular course that seems to work from all angles...  


So a topic:  

Say you had the time and disposable income or the means to buy a golf course with your best friends or family or as a solo venture.  

What factors would convince you to put your money in the pot and commit to owning a golf course rather than simply becoming a member at a private course/being content playing public courses?

Would control of all things, ie. how the course plays, walking v. carts, number of members or public players, etc. be a factor?

Would location matter?  Even if it wasn't linksland, for instance, could you still love your course, or would you be taking it or yourself to therapy a few years down the road?

What about the design or ability to change the design if you didn't like it?  Would the Crump or Parsinen or [insert your course designer/developer role model here] example make the highly probable headaches of ownership worthwhile for you?

What else?  

I'm also curious to know if any of the practicing architects ever have had a strong desire to buy and build their own course according to "dream course" specs floating around in their wee heads in addition to work for clients, which involves varying levels of compromise.

[RJ_Daley]

I've looked at the proposition many times from both the standpoint of acquiring an existing course of some merit, or developing one from a piece of great land.  I've been very close a couple of times.  

But, then rational considerations take hold.  I look at the market and location, or the number of ways I could loose big time, and I back out.  I have no illusions of the work and time needed to make it a success.  I consider my personality and come to the conclusion that if I were the owner, I'd be too hands-on and burn myself out quickly.  My ideas and desire to innovate and run things to my perceived standard of excellence would outrun any sane man's ability to keep up.  It would probably be a death sentence in the end.

Now, if I could be sooooo wealthy as to be worth at least 2X or 3X or more what the golf course is fully worth or the cost to buy it, and I could modify my style to pick key employees well and delegate, then I could become a gentleman developer like Kohler, Keiser, Pasqualucci, Bakst... you fill in your model well heeled gent.  Then,  you'd probably find me in the club kitchen cooking up a batch of sauce (red Gravy) or out with the super scouting for pests, or even playing a couple times a week.  

Dream-on...  

[Rick Shefchik]

Acute mental illness.

[Garland Bayley]

John Fought is building his own course, Sundoon, at the east end of the Columbia River Gorge.

[Mike Sweeney]

I have to think that you go into it with a view that you will probably lose money, and thus you need enough net worth to not worry about it.

I do think there are probably pockets where you could take 18 hole courses, put houses on 9 and keep 9 holes which you break even on the golf.

They tried to do this at River Vale (NJ) but could not get the local zoning, so it stays 18. It is a pretty good golf course too, but there are many in that area that are cheaper which drives 90% of the market. If you could pick the best 9 holes at River Vale, it would be a very very good 9 holer.

http://www.rivervalecc.com/

[Adrian_Stiff]

I have owned/ part owned a few courses and never lost money. Golf courses can make money, attractive layouts and an attractive price you will attract golfers... dreams about a piece of linksland on the outer hebrides will lose your cash. I have just bought 100 hectares of land with a few others to build a course in Bulgaria, we are not looking to lose money but setting good budgets and being realistic like any business is the key.

[Richard Choi]

With the recession looming and credit crunch choking the life out the middle class, I think this is about a bad a time as any to buy a golf course.

You should be prepared to lose a lot of money if you are planning to buy one.

I think better time would be to let the economy go through its cycles and wait till it is on the up swing again.

[Mike Sweeney]

I have just bought 100 hectares of land with a few others to build a course in Bulgaria, we are not looking to lose money but setting good budgets and being realistic like any business is the key.

China would be my first pick, but overseas is the way to go for finding growth in the golf market.

However, I don't think the growth of the immigrant population here in the US will grow the 18 hole golf course market. Housing yes, golf courses no.

[David Whitmer]

If I had all the money I could ever want, I would not purchase an existing golf course. I would, however, think about building a course from scratch.

I used to be a club pro, and worked at a private club for seven years, starting before the course was completed. Our first pro shop was a trailer. There was no grass on the entire site. To see the land evolve into a golf course was a neat thing to witness, and I know for a fact the two owners were very proud of what they created. That would interest me if I had the means...to be able to point to a finished product and say, "I/my team did that."

[Adrian_Stiff]

David- building from scratch as you say is the fun, the planning, shaping, watching and the grow in are the best bits. Owning 100% of a golf course is not realistic but owning 10% of a project is realistic for quite a number of people, a few times I have kept my fees at zero and taken a stake.

[Garland Bayley]

As an ironic and iconclastic twist, I'd like to tear down 150 acres of perfectly good housing to build a golf course.

Why good housing? Why not bad housing, say in the 5th Ward of NO?

[Jim Thompson]

RJ,

I know where you could get some help with all that work and by the time we were done it would be the best time you ever had!  I know I'll do it again, on some scale, down the road.  There have only been a two setting in my life where I've jumped out of bed at 5:30 to go do something;  the first involved football and the other was building golf.  The latter would even keep me up to all hours, thinking and manipulating ideas.  What a great business.

Cheers!

JT

[RJ_Daley]

Jimbo, as you know we pondered your energy.  I continue to know that if I kept up your pace during those conception, building, grow-in and operational years, I would not be above ground. You are a stong minded and perserverant dude.

[Joe Hancock]

Jim,

You're right...the building part is a riot, but once you're at the retail side of business it...well, you know.....

Joe

[Mike Benham]

Jim,

You're right...the building part is a riot, but once you're at the retail side of business it...well, you know.....

Joe

I would only buy a course if the retail side was not involved.  Yep, keep it for myself ...

[Steve Lang]

 

Having something with potential close to home become available after winning a major lottery, and knowing enough good folks to take care of improvements and then business.

[Joe Hancock]

Jim,

You're right...the building part is a riot, but once you're at the retail side of business it...well, you know.....

Joe

I would only buy a course if the retail side was not involved.  Yep, keep it for myself ...

Good move...

[Rich Goodale]

I would plead temporary insanity.

[Bruce Katona]

1. Proper location go allow customers (members or daily fee) easy access to the facility
2. Playable layout to allow for enjoyment and challane for all of the customers
3. Modest and reasonable infrastructure (clubhouse and maitenance facility which do not drain resources (personel and operating cash flow).
4. Acquisition priced properly to allow for positive annual cash floew from operations to cover costs and debt service.

Gee think, I might do this in my spare time?

[Jim Thompson]

I don't find the retail side to be a negative.  For me, it's great to be at a place where people are coming with the intention of having fun and enjoying the day.  Now if one tries to take undue advantage of the customer or fails to provide a perceived value for the cost of the experience, then one gets what they deserve.  Granted, sometimes you are there for someone else's bad day, but that happens in every business.  At the end of the day it is all about accomodation in my mind.  In the field I try to accomodate my vision of what should be or how it should be and in the clubhouse I just accomodate the customer's vision for their day.  I really do think it is just that simple and at the end on the day making other people happy and fulfilling one's personal visions is a hell of a lot of fun.