The Downside of Turf Research

[John Kavanaugh]

Why doesn't what worked ten or even five years ago still work today?  When did practice greens become test greens?  Who really started the search and demand for fast greens and would have members ever wanted more speed if the researchers didn't make promises through technology. Has turf research and the over-education of supers been the driving force behind boring modern greens and an increasing number of days of maintenance down time?  

On the upside..Please tell me anything good for architecture that has come from turf advances.

[TEPaul]

JohnK:

Neither.

You have to understand, pal, the US agronomy industry is a multi-million dollar industry supported by research entities, machinery, chemicals etc. One does not perpetuate all that by just sticking to old and proven ways of doing things.  

For American golf grass all this has resulted into a form of hybridization and a "support for life" system I affectionately call "The Emergency Ward".

The great irony in all this is if you just let grass fend for itself naturally, it can and will do a pretty damn good job of it on its own.

[John Kavanaugh]

JohnK:

Neither.

You have to understand, pal, the US Agronomy industry is a multi million dollar industry supported by research entities, machinery, chemicals etc. One does not perpetuate all that by just sticking to old and proven ways of doing things.  

I can't believe I missed that connection.  Would an upside be that underpaid supers get some nice free stuff from the companies?  That must be good for golf.  If not, what hold do the companies have over golf courses?  They sure as hell do have the magazines by the wedges.  

If it wasn't for the chemical company ad revenue we wouldn't have the Golfweek rankings...That would be sad indeed.

[TEPaul]

JohnK:

Do you actually think supers only get paid by their golf clubs??

How naive can you be man?

That's like trying to say cops only get paid by their city governments.

Do you also think amateur golfers never take a cent either?

For God's Sake, my Boy, what is with you?

I used to chair the Amateur status committee at the Golf Association of Philadelphia that was responsible for amateur status reinstatement.

Some of these young gun dreamers would turn pro young, of course they wouldn't make it out there and in a year or two they'd be back applying for their amateur status again.

Some used to ask me how long it would take them to get their amateur status back.

I'd tell them that all depended on how many cases of wine they were willing to give me.

[John Kavanaugh]

Tom,

I don't believe for a second that any super that I know or that reads this site accepts free trips or takes kickbacks from chemical or equipment companies.  Does anyone know if the GCSAA has ethical standards prohibiting such?

[John Gosselin]

"On the upside..Please tell me anything good for architecture that has come from turf advances"

My experience is that we have less down time related to poor playing conditions and much less time needed for maintenance.
Overall, more uninterrupted time for the customer/member to enjoy the golf course.

 

[John Kavanaugh]

I do believe that the major golf media is held hostage by the large advertisers.  Has anyone ever seen any editorial content against the overuse of chemicals on golf courses?  Has a magazine ever promoted a more natural approach that isn't just a back door method of giving business to the same ole guys.

[John Kavanaugh]

"On the upside..Please tell me anything good for architecture that has come from turf advances"

My experience is that we have less down time related to poor playing conditions and much less time needed for maintenance.
Overall, more uninterrupted time for the customer/member to enjoy the golf course.

 

John,

I see the exact opposite in that at the course where I play with the largest budget there has not been one day, not one, where the course is not under some sort of repair or maintenance.  We currently are under a rare double deep core aeriation.  Once last week and again next week with the fairways getting aeriated in between.  It is overkill city when you combine technology with money.  Now the super is convinced that he needs to change out our seven year old greens with a "new" grass some salesman or expert has said will solve all our (his) problems.  Until they get a new and better grass in another seven years anyways.

[A.G._Crockett]

I don't know about where you guys live and play, but the difference between common bermuda and the modern hybrids as a playing surface for fairways in the South is more than night and day.

Also the various tif dwarf bermudas and the newer stuff like Champion are just huge advances over old bermuda putting surfaces.

Are we feeling just a bit cynical on a Monday morning???

[John Kavanaugh]

I don't know about where you guys live and play, but the difference between common bermuda and the modern hybrids as a playing surface for fairways in the South is more than night and day.

Also the various tif dwarf bermudas and the newer stuff like Champion are just huge advances over old bermuda putting surfaces.

Are we feeling just a bit cynical on a Monday morning???

So when Hogan played Seminole it wasn't up to your standards?

[Tom_Doak]

John K:

I've had invitations from Toro to attend the Ryder Cup (including airfare) -- never took them up on it so I don't know how lavish their trips can be.  I don't think they pick superintendents at random to go on such trips but I guarantee you the guys at Pebble Beach or Kohler get to go sometimes.

Still, I think that's only the #2 reason that the business has changed so much.  #1 with a bullet is that the top guys in turf management are VERY competitive with each other, and many of them define their success not by having the proper "maintenance meld" but by how fast they can get their greens and by how high a budget they can wrangle out of their employers -- the latter because their own salary is loosely based on a percentage of their budget.

[A.G._Crockett]

I don't know about where you guys live and play, but the difference between common bermuda and the modern hybrids as a playing surface for fairways in the South is more than night and day.

Also the various tif dwarf bermudas and the newer stuff like Champion are just huge advances over old bermuda putting surfaces.

Are we feeling just a bit cynical on a Monday morning???

So when Hogan played Seminole it wasn't up to your standards?

Sorry, John.  I misunderstood the question.  I would never want to imply that things could be better now than they were in 1955.

[John Gosselin]

John, I am not familiar with your specific situation.

With all these new turf varieties I am using less water, fertilizer, and pesticides that I have in a long time. Also, we don't aerify greens or fairways in season only off season. Our season in Pilly is generally mid-April to the end of October. We certainly play golf before and beyond those dates, but the good old GAP shuts down the handicap computers.

By the way, we mow our greens 2 to 3 times daily at .065
and our fairways daily at .325. Neither has had a granular fertilizer application applied to them in over 18 months.

 

[Joe Hancock]

By the way, we mow our greens 2 to 3 times daily at .065
and our fairways daily at .325. Neither has had a granular fertilizer application applied to them in over 18 months.

Please tell me this isn't true.....

Joe

[Ray Richard]

John, you would be amazed at some of the stuff that goes on at the turf colleges. They have engineered salt tolerant grasses, endophyte enhanced grasses that resist fungus and dwarf bermuda and bentgrasses that greatly improved golf course conditions.

Golf course supers really don't get many percs, you may get a hat or a free cocktail on occasion but kickbacks are a thing of the past. The GCSAA and affiliated local chapters hate impropriety. In my region, we had a super plead no contest to a kickback scheme and he was kicked out of both associations the next day.

[John Kavanaugh]

Joe,

I believe it is called sarcasm...a supers favorite friend when dealing with stupid members.

[Joe Hancock]

Joe,

I believe it is called sarcasm...a supers favorite friend when dealing with stupid members.

I feel like a stupid member, I usually don't miss tell-tale signs of sarcasm.....

[JESII]

Joe,

I believe it is called sarcasm...a supers favorite friend when dealing with stupid members.

I feel like a stupid member, I usually don't miss tell-tale signs of sarcasm.....

Sure Grandpa, sure...

[RJ_Daley]

Joe, I took the bait as well...  

I look at turf science and research, particularly from the big 8 or 10 turf science stations (Penn State, MSU, Illinois, Texas A&M, OJ Noer center at UW, etc.) as a two edged sword.  Many beneficial advances in both turf, entomology, disease control, etc.  I suspect there is more wining and dining of the academics at the schools than the garden variety super.

But Joe, if some big fert, chem or machine company comes and sets you up with an all expense paid trip for dos, to someplace exotic, remember your old impoverished pensioned out to pasture cheesehead biggest fan, will ya?  

[Joe Hancock]

Joe, I took the bait as well...  

I look at turf science and research, particularly from the big 8 or 10 turf science stations (Penn State, MSU, Illinois, Texas A&M, OJ Noer center at UW, etc.) as a two edged sword.  Many beneficial advances in both turf, entomology, disease control, etc.  I suspect there is more wining and dining of the academics at the schools than the garden variety super.

But Joe, if some big fert, chem or machine company comes and sets you up with an all expense paid trip for dos, to someplace exotic, remember your old impoverished pensioned out to pasture cheesehead biggest fan, will ya?  

RJ,

I'm so cheap, I can' t afford free!

Joe

[Brett Morris]

I suspect there is more wining and dining of the academics at the schools than the garden variety super.

Nope.  Universities are competing for research dollars as the majority of research programmes are industry funded.

Having been a Super and now in research, I never in my years went along to a meeting to talk with others about green speed and maintenance budget size, and never heard any others discussing it.  I think that's a real misconception within the industry.

Alot of the advancements in turf science have been the result of player demands and the biotic and abiotic stresses imparted on the turf.  Up until now, breeding has relied upon natural selection (Champion, MS-Supreme, etc.), mutagenesis (TifEagle) or hybridisation.  There's no silver bullet as diseases mutate and insects adapt.  Wait until we start talking about genetically modified grasses....  

[John Kavanaugh]

The thing that I don't understand is why during a drought the course with the least budget is the most fun to play.

[Craig Sweet]

John, are you a member at the course with the "least budget"?

[John Kavanaugh]

John, are you a member at the course with the "least budget"?

Yes, Lawrence County Country Club has 200 members at a nine hole course with annual dues of $480 per year.  It has minimal cart revenue because we all own are own cart that they store for us for a fee of $100 per year.  You figure what the budget must be...I don't ask because I don't want to know.  I love the course during drought times because our ground gets amazingly fast and our greens are in fine condition.  

This reminds me of why my parents buy plants at Wal-Mart.  They think that because the plants are so mistreated that they learn to live under the worst conditions and won't die just because you ignore them for a day or two.  That is the way the grass is at LCCC...It lives because it must.

[Mike Sweeney]

John,

When I was a kid, we played Merion Bluegrass at Merion, and almost every wedge shot required replacing a beaver pelt. At the time Richie Valentine was viewed as a genius for discovering this grass.

I also like the smother roads that are out there today, and road contractors make a pretty penny and get to play nice golf courses as a result. The pot hole guys are probably playing munis.

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