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Rich Goodale

Re:TGC's Top 10 holes of the PGA Tour
« Reply #25 on: September 06, 2007, 12:32:08 PM »
Bias was when the NBA jumped the shark for me.

JVB is right about the 17th at TPC--the hole which is most influential to a tour golfer's strategy.

If by this you mean that it is the hole that most makes them think, "Oh, Jeez,  I hope I don't hit it long, short, left, or right!" then I absolutely agree.  

I'm thankful that strategy generally involves some other elements, though... ;)

AG

Strategy is planning your way to achieve a task, and then executing that plan as best you can.  I doubt if the tour pros stand on the first tee at Riviera thinking "I wonder how I'm going to play the 10th today."  My guess is that most or all of them are thinking about the 17th at TPC-Sawgrass, consciously or subconsciously at many points throughout their round.

I even doubt that many tour pros will think much about what they will do on the 10th at Riviera when they get there.  They will have decided what shot to play long before the round started.  On the other hand, my guess is that most if not all of them will have some sort of uncertainty in their mind as to what shot to hit when they get to the 17th.  Being the pros that they are, they can probably hit at least 3 different clubs, with more than 3 different swings, with more than 3 aiming points, each of which has some sort of risk/reward balance in their mind.

Also, at the end of the day, the shot dispersion possible at the 10th at Riviera is fairly narrow, while it is huge at the 17th at Sawgrass.  And, it is the 17th, rather than the 10th--little chance to recover.

All these (and other reasons) are why I think the 17th requires serious strategic thinking--particularly if what you score on the hole is important to you.  If you are just out for a laugh, of course, strategy is basically meaningless.

RF
« Last Edit: September 06, 2007, 12:33:17 PM by Richard Farnsworth Goodale »

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:TGC's Top 10 holes of the PGA Tour
« Reply #26 on: September 06, 2007, 01:01:40 PM »
Rich,

I really don't think it is the strategy of the hole that they are thinking about during the whole round.

Its griefing and knowing you are trying to avoid anything more than a 3 which is likely consuming them.  I would equate it more with knowing at 8 AM that you have a dentist appt at 4 PM and stressing over it all day long....

For the most part 17 is just a hit and hope penal-type hole.

Big difference in my mind...
« Last Edit: September 06, 2007, 01:03:20 PM by Kalen Braley »

Phil Benedict

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:TGC's Top 10 holes of the PGA Tour
« Reply #27 on: September 06, 2007, 01:11:03 PM »
Rich,

I don't think your description of how players approach the 17th rises to the level of strategic thinking in any way - what club to hit and how hard to swing are tactical at best.  Where to hit may be strategic, but on this hole 90% of the players aim for the middle of the green and no one lays up.

It's not a strategic hole.  Kalen is correct.  It's hit and hope with whatever club/trajectory you feel comfortable with (which is execution, not strategy).

A.G._Crockett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:TGC's Top 10 holes of the PGA Tour
« Reply #28 on: September 06, 2007, 01:14:38 PM »
Bias was when the NBA jumped the shark for me.

JVB is right about the 17th at TPC--the hole which is most influential to a tour golfer's strategy.

If by this you mean that it is the hole that most makes them think, "Oh, Jeez,  I hope I don't hit it long, short, left, or right!" then I absolutely agree.  

I'm thankful that strategy generally involves some other elements, though... ;)

AG

Strategy is planning your way to achieve a task, and then executing that plan as best you can.  I doubt if the tour pros stand on the first tee at Riviera thinking "I wonder how I'm going to play the 10th today."  My guess is that most or all of them are thinking about the 17th at TPC-Sawgrass, consciously or subconsciously at many points throughout their round.

I even doubt that many tour pros will think much about what they will do on the 10th at Riviera when they get there.  They will have decided what shot to play long before the round started.  On the other hand, my guess is that most if not all of them will have some sort of uncertainty in their mind as to what shot to hit when they get to the 17th.  Being the pros that they are, they can probably hit at least 3 different clubs, with more than 3 different swings, with more than 3 aiming points, each of which has some sort of risk/reward balance in their mind.

Also, at the end of the day, the shot dispersion possible at the 10th at Riviera is fairly narrow, while it is huge at the 17th at Sawgrass.  And, it is the 17th, rather than the 10th--little chance to recover.

All these (and other reasons) are why I think the 17th requires serious strategic thinking--particularly if what you score on the hole is important to you.  If you are just out for a laugh, of course, strategy is basically meaningless.

RF


Rich,
I agree wholeheartedly with you to the extent that when the tour guys get to the 10th at Riviera they have already determined how they are going to attempt to play the hole.  They aren't wondering how when they get there.

One difference between the 10th at Riviera and the 17th at TPC, though, would be what happens IF the plan on the first shot doesn't work out.  At Riviera, that might mean playing away from the pin on the approach, punching out into the fairway, aiming for a greenside bunker because you can't hold the green on the shot that you are about to play, and so on.  Another set of choices then arises when and if the green is missed.  These decisions are in play even on a "normal" par three.

All of that is missing on 17 at TPC.  It is wonderful theatre and one of the great moments in tournament golf, but strategic it ain't.  The fact that it is the 17th, not the 10th, and there is no ability to "recover" is testimony to the penal nature of the hole, NOT the strategic options available.  There is NO recovery on the hole (unless you are Fred Couples), much less the round.

The year Toms won the PGA at Atlanta Athletic Club, my son and I sat behind the first green on Sunday and watched the entire field play the hole.  EVERY single player who didn't turn their drive over and went through the dogleg into the right rough then aimed for the left front bunker; apparently they had determined that their chances for par were better there than from the heavy rough on the backside of the green.  (Ultimately, of course, Toms lays up on 18, makes birdie and wins, another bit of strategy.)

What are the comparable strategies on 17 at TPC?  My answer would be that there aren't any comparable strategies.  The club selection and the aiming point possibilities that you mention would be the same anywhere, at least to an extent, wouldn't they?
« Last Edit: September 06, 2007, 01:18:15 PM by A.G._Crockett »
"Golf...is usually played with the outward appearance of great dignity.  It is, nevertheless, a game of considerable passion, either of the explosive type, or that which burns inwardly and sears the soul."      Bobby Jones

Jay Flemma

Re:TGC's Top 10 holes of the PGA Tour
« Reply #29 on: September 06, 2007, 01:27:04 PM »
The list looks "lowest common denominator" to me.  Too long, too narrow, too much water...too bad the masses will eat this corn up and "oink for more" - as C. Montgomery Burns would say.

"Hello Simpson, Monty Burns here..."

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:TGC's Top 10 holes of the PGA Tour
« Reply #30 on: September 06, 2007, 01:29:23 PM »
The list looks "lowest common denominator" to me.  Too long, too narrow, too much water...too bad the masses will eat this corn up and "oink for more" - as C. Montgomery Burns would say.

"Hello Simpson, Monty Burns here..."

Jay,

I don't know about you, but I don't have a problem with half of the holes that are on this list.  Its only the other half that probably don't belong...