News:

Welcome to the Golf Club Atlas Discussion Group!

Each user is approved by the Golf Club Atlas editorial staff. For any new inquiries, please contact us.


corey miller

  • Karma: +0/-0
Sleepy Hollow CC-#16
« on: September 04, 2007, 09:36:58 PM »
A sincere thank you to many on this site who helped to make this possible.  It was a long process, but with the involvement of many talented and well meaning people we are close to realizing our goal at Sleepy Hollow.  

Original #16 short





Rees Version




almost finished version



Brad Swanson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Sleepy Hollow CC-#16
« Reply #1 on: September 04, 2007, 09:40:51 PM »
Corey,
   Looks great!  The original appears to have a thumbprint type green (central roundish indentation), where the Rees and newest versions don't.  Is that the case, or am I seeing the pictures incorrectly?  Glad to see those pines behind the green go.  Make sure you keep a close eye on Bill Murray's golf cart driving, too. ;)

Cheers,
Brad
« Last Edit: September 04, 2007, 09:41:36 PM by Brad Swanson »

Mike_Cirba

Re:Sleepy Hollow CC-#16
« Reply #2 on: September 04, 2007, 09:41:31 PM »
Corey,

Nice.   ;D

JMorgan

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Sleepy Hollow CC-#16
« Reply #3 on: September 04, 2007, 09:48:38 PM »
Corey, I've been waiting for these pictures!  Congratulations to everyone involved in the restoration.  Sleepy Hollow is an underappreciated gem with a rich history that should be preserved at all costs.  One of my favorite CBM/Raynor courses.

Bill Gayne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Sleepy Hollow CC-#16
« Reply #4 on: September 04, 2007, 09:53:15 PM »
Wow, great picture. I don't know if it's the photography but it appears as if the green in the first picture has much more tilt to it.

Those dead guys from the golden age really did think of everything. A concrete cart path encircling the green before carts were invented. Brilliant!

PThomas

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Sleepy Hollow CC-#16
« Reply #5 on: September 04, 2007, 10:37:50 PM »
wow, what a difference

that version by Rees is, um, well, certainly different..... ???
199 played, only Augusta National left to play!

Mike Policano

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Sleepy Hollow CC-#16
« Reply #6 on: September 04, 2007, 10:46:46 PM »
Corey, the picture looks great. It reminds of the greensite of a hole at Yeaman's Hall that I played a few years ago. Might have been 2 or 3.

When will it all be done?

Cheers

TEPaul

Re:Sleepy Hollow CC-#16
« Reply #7 on: September 04, 2007, 10:52:19 PM »
Corey:

The exactness of the restoration of that hole from the top photo to the bottom one is extremely impressive in my book.

The guys who run The Creek Club want to come up and see the Sleepy Hollow restoration. I'll be in touch.

TEPaul

Re:Sleepy Hollow CC-#16
« Reply #8 on: September 04, 2007, 10:56:42 PM »
Uh, Corey, did Gil and team also restore the Palisades (or whatever they are) on the other side of the river?

For some reason I don't seem to see them in the top two photographs.

Do you think Gil and team have been reading this latest thread by Peter Pallotta about the importance of backdrops and melding the golf course naturally into what's "off site" or perhaps vice versa?

;)
« Last Edit: September 04, 2007, 10:57:41 PM by TEPaul »

igrowgrass

Re:Sleepy Hollow CC-#16
« Reply #9 on: September 04, 2007, 10:58:48 PM »
How many holes will be changed during the restoration?

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Sleepy Hollow CC-#16
« Reply #10 on: September 04, 2007, 11:10:12 PM »
I beleive it was Shivas who mentioned this before....

But without knowing the history of the hole and having prior pics to work from and knowing it was from an ODG...

Wouldn't a "modern" architect get critized and run out of town for building something like this?



While I personally like it, I very much enjoy quirk on the course and consequently like a lot of the stuff Engh has done, even though he often gets slammed on here.  And I suspect I will really like Stranz's stuff when I get the chance to play it...

TEPaul

Re:Sleepy Hollow CC-#16
« Reply #11 on: September 04, 2007, 11:18:11 PM »
Kalen:

The top (and bottom) photo definitely represents golf architecture "of an era".

The point is, that "era" that is represented by those particular architects' style is coming back again.

We are in a renaissance in golf architecture now and the style of Macdonald/Raynor is apparently giving the more naturalistic style of the Golden Age as represented by a lot of the features of C&C, Doak, Hanse, De Vries et al a run for their money.

I guess it all only goes to prove---what goes around, comes back around again.
« Last Edit: September 04, 2007, 11:19:48 PM by TEPaul »

TEPaul

Re:Sleepy Hollow CC-#16
« Reply #12 on: September 04, 2007, 11:22:26 PM »
Hey, GOLFCLUBATLASERS---

Just squint your eyes and study that photo of Rees' iteration of that hole and try to deny that it doesn't look like some big flat-topped troglodyte with a big goider on his left cheek about to leap back at you on the tee and gobble you up.

Furthermore, who'd deny that doesn't get your strategic attention? Have you ever pulled a club on a par 3 and then run 50 yards in the opposite direction?  ;)
« Last Edit: September 04, 2007, 11:25:35 PM by TEPaul »

Tommy Williamsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Sleepy Hollow CC-#16
« Reply #13 on: September 04, 2007, 11:28:44 PM »
I applaud the restoration of Sleepy Hollow.  I was there this past summer looking at the work.  It is a special place.  While I am pleased to see the restoration yet I hope the design itself does not catch on.
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Sleepy Hollow CC-#16
« Reply #14 on: September 05, 2007, 02:07:13 AM »
I applaud the restoration of Sleepy Hollow.  I was there this past summer looking at the work.  It is a special place.  While I am pleased to see the restoration yet I hope the design itself does not catch on.

Tommy

I am with you - I don't care for this style at all.  It reminds a lot of what Tom P calls steeplechase architecture - very rigid looking.  I spose the folks at Sleepy Hollow should be happy.  In the new version you get to see the hills in the distance and once you are on the green that wraparound bunker doesn't matter much visually.  

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

wsmorrison

Re:Sleepy Hollow CC-#16
« Reply #15 on: September 05, 2007, 07:42:33 AM »
That is a huge improvement from the previous version.  That sure is a template if I ever saw one but in a great location.  Tom and I were in nearby Tarrytown a little while back and thought about popping over but time was short.  Next time I will.

Tom,

I see a smiley face looking at Rees's version of the hole, not a troglodyte.  Maybe I'm in a better mood than you this morning.  I don't know why though  ;)

I don't know what the hole looked like before Rees started his work, but assuming he had photographs to consider, that sure is a poor job.  Even if he didn't, it isn't good design at all.
« Last Edit: September 05, 2007, 07:44:05 AM by Wayne Morrison »

Mike Sweeney

Re:Sleepy Hollow CC-#16
« Reply #16 on: September 05, 2007, 08:03:33 AM »
Just a reminder why I think this is one of the most interesting restoration/renovations of a golf course:

http://online.wsj.com/public/article/SB116199022249506583.html

Combine that with the limited views that I had of TPC Boston, and Gil Hanse would be very high on my list if I was doing a restoration.


Evan Fleisher

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Sleepy Hollow CC-#16
« Reply #17 on: September 05, 2007, 08:18:30 AM »
Really interesting looking hole...and although some here say they don't care for it, I also believe that an "era" hole is just fine in the proper context.

I really enjoy the opening up of the long-distance vista.
Born Rochester, MN. Grew up Miami, FL. Live Cleveland, OH. Handicap 13.2. Have 26 & 23 year old girls and wife of 29 years. I'm a Senior Supply Chain Business Analyst for Vitamix. Diehard walker, but tolerate cart riders! Love to travel, always have my sticks with me. Mollydooker for life!

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Sleepy Hollow CC-#16
« Reply #18 on: September 05, 2007, 08:33:14 AM »
While the "restoration" of the 16th hole is in fact true to the pcture of CB's original, that is not the version that was present when Rees did the now infamous smiley face defacing in the mid 90's to the 16th.

The version that was there prior was 2 "Tillinghast appearing"
flashed up bunkers in the front (and perhaps one more on the right if memory serves)
The hole in that form was quite attractive.

Tillinghast did a renovation on the course years ago and added 5 holes in the interior and may well have redone the bunkering on the entire course (or someone had in that style at least on the 16th,as well as on other holes)

So when courses do a restoration, what period should they return to?
Should Sleepy reclaim the original holes (which ended up on their short course) from  before Tillinghast?
As several have pointed out, the CB bunker while faithfully restored, is not real attractive.

Sleepy hired Tillinghast because he was the hottest architect of his day(20's) at least in that area and his nearby courses got much acclaim.
Sleepy also hired Rees becaus he was the hottest architect of his day and somehow the bumbling USGA types out there felt his input was needed on every Open course and high profile renovations (with results most of us look back at as disasterous or at least misguided).
Currently the fad is restorations and Sleepy is consistent and jumpng on that fad as well.
Many other well heeled courses have followed this track also .

This is not an attack on Sleepy as it's one of my favorite places on earth and I have fond memories of my 2 years working there.
It's more an observation of what goes on at many of the well heeled courses out there.
My hope of course is that it's not a fad but that they've got it "right" and more renovations/restorations are not needed.
History does not support this.

Sleepy is a great course with a great membership.
I hope that this restoration has gone well and that they have a product the members can appreciate and be proud of.
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

corey miller

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Sleepy Hollow CC-#16
« Reply #19 on: September 05, 2007, 09:30:36 AM »


As someone involved in the process at Sleepy Hollow I also hope that we got it right.  I do think the odds increase greatly when you interview highly competant people and actually listen to them.

I firmly believe most all golden age courses would greatly benefit by "looking old".  Our only mandate to those we spoke with was to make the course look more 1920's than 1970's.  

I was expecting a split among the membership on the stylistic issues (Tillie,CBM) but it would seem once they saw the work of Gil and George they have been highly supportive.  What many we spoke with echoed was that Westchester really did not need another course with "Tillie bunkers like Winged Foot".  Of course, that seems to be the big selling point in this area with many renovation guys. ???

The hole that Jeff remembers in the early 90's had been long changed from what Tillie left on his redo.  

The project will be completed very soon, we are down to 1,17,18 with Gil on site as we speak.  

It's a little funny but I choose to highlight this hole because it is often photographed, is of historical note (short), and frankly it was a hole that I considered the easiest decision for Gil to make on the course.

I do think we faced many unique challenges on our project, including two famous archtitects involved (+Rees), a completed master plan that was going to imbed WF/tilly bunkers into the fake Rees mounding, and a membership that did not appreciate the potential we had with our spectacular property.

Mike Sweeney

Re:Sleepy Hollow CC-#16
« Reply #20 on: September 05, 2007, 09:32:31 AM »
Jeff,

It is my understanding that Gil Hanse basically said "let's pick one, Tilly or CB Mac". The membership chose CB Mac. Thus the Tilly holes are being "renovated" to Gil Hanse and George Bahto interpretations of what a CB Mac should look like. in addition as you know better that me, the Tilly holes were quite tight back in that corner of the property.

This is why I find it interesting. In a perfect world when Tilly built his new holes, he would have taken Gil Hanse's attitude and built 5 (or so) new holes that would have fit the CB Mac style of Sleepy.

Tilly was a problem way before Rees Jones was around.

corey miller

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Sleepy Hollow CC-#16
« Reply #21 on: September 05, 2007, 09:38:12 AM »

Mike

A little clarification.  I would never suggest that a membership be given the duty of "picking one".  That would be like giving a monkey a machine gun.

We asked the architects that we interviewed what they thought would be the best course of action.  They were unanimous in what direction they thought the club should take.

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Sleepy Hollow CC-#16
« Reply #22 on: September 05, 2007, 09:42:56 AM »
Corey,
I think the basic problem is/was most people know who Rees Jones is and 99.99 % hadn't heard of Tiliinghast or CB until very recently.
Mike,
I think Rees was trying to give the bunkers a consistent theme as well--his ::)
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Jim_Kennedy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Sleepy Hollow CC-#16
« Reply #23 on: September 05, 2007, 09:47:07 AM »
This is not an unbiased opinion  ;)

The 'Short' hole offers a simple but pure test, be precise with your short iron, be good with your putter, be prepared for a challenging recovery if you miss. That is all any short par three can present, no matter how it is dressed up. This one appears to have all three going for it.

.......and how well does this hole occupy its space? How much more perfectly could the abruptness of the green, with its moat of sand, compliment the towering palisade with its moat of water?

Guys, how far do you have to stretch to dislike this hole?  

  ;D

"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

RSLivingston_III

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Sleepy Hollow CC-#16
« Reply #24 on: September 05, 2007, 12:09:42 PM »
Here's one from 2000, just to show the Palisades are back there.

"You need to start with the hickories as I truly believe it is hard to get inside the mind of the great architects from days gone by if one doesn't have any sense of how the equipment played way back when!"  
       Our Fearless Leader

Tags:
Tags:

An Error Has Occurred!

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()
Back