What were the changes at Ojai?

[David Stamm]

I'm going back to Ojai in Oct. for a few days and will be playing the course several times while there. After playing it earlier this summer I've been excitied about getting back there and playing it again. I do a have some questions however. I've been reading Thomas' recently and saw the original scorecard on page 78 of his book. The following is the scorecard the way the course was pre-war.

Hole      Yds       Par

1           520       5
2           465       5
3           190       3
4           400       4
5           440       4
6           425       4
7           410       4
8           240       3
9           495       5

3,585 yds

10          450       4
11          350       4
12          105       3
13          320       4
14          440       4
15          380       4
16          390       4
17          130       3
18          475       5

3,040 yds.

Total= 6,625 par 72



Here's the present scorecard. The nines have been reversed.

1            373       4
2            358       4
3            115       3
4            297       4
5            440       4
6            312       4
7            392       4
8            128       3
9            517       5

2932 yds.


10          419        4
11          227        3
12          487        5
13          405        4
14          203        3
15          571        5
16          203        3
17          403        4
18          442        5

3360 yds

Total= 6292yds,  par 70


Jay Moorish "restored" the course (a play on words if ever there was one) a few years back and brought back the "lost" holes (16 and 17). One of the questions is, where did the yardage go on this course? The course has lost 333 yds. After seeing the course over the summer, I can't imagine why the present 6th had lost so much, nearly 70 yds. There is plenty of room if I remember behind the present tee to have it play the way Thomas designed it. There is also one more par 3 today. Which ones are "original" and what was lost to create it? Today's front none despite all this appears to be by and large intact. What about the other nine? I can't make heads or tails of what is what. Obviously 16 and 17 were 3 and 4 then, but after that??? Is 18 now number 5 then? What holes now are the same as what's on the original scorecard?

As a side note, is there another course of Ojai's pedigree that has lost this much on it's total yardage?

[James Bennett]

David

when I played there (off the current 10th tee) I thought after the first few holes (10 through 14) that, well, this is ok but what is the hype about.  I did enjoy 15 (which may be 2 accroding to your list if 15 is original) and enjoyed nearly everything else (well, I didn't really enjoy the current 1st and I thought the trees were a bit silly on the left of 6, but that wasn't George's fault).

If your hypothesis is right, I think I understand why I was initially underwhelmed on much of the less undulating land (current 10-14), and why the subsequent holes seemed a better fit with the more challenging land.

James B

[Tommy_Naccarato]

David,

You had to ask for War & Peace didn't you?!?!?!

Here goes. Better take a bathroom break first!

O.K.

After your original routing, Bell came back in 40's and made extensive recovery changes to the course when it was reopened after being closed during the war.

They were the swaping of the today's 10th & 13th  which was originally the 1st and 7th. (Morrish routing also) The original 1st green is located where today's 14th, which Bell changed and made into the par 3, 2nd (Moorish's routing also) The short Road Hole-like 2nd hole from the original course became a longer and much wider par 5, 3rd (Moorish routing also)

The original 3rd and 4th holes (today's 16th and 17th) were lost due to the main water line that feeds the town of Ojai, coming through the center of those holes (so I'm told that was the reason behind vacating them in the first place.) Suddenly the original and charming long par 4, 5th (todays 18th) becomes the 4th. (Moorish routing also) it's massive Billy Bell-scraggily like bunker seen colorized in the book is vacated (and is still partially eroded there today) Bunkers are redone on both sides of the green by Bell and eventually again by golf architecture star, Moorish.

The par 3, 5th is then added by Bell, (Morrish routing also) located between today's 14th and 18th greens. It is still there being utilized as a practice area for teaching pros and as a warm-up I presume.

The tough as nails, uphill 6th (Bell & Moorish's routing also) with it's right side boundary being the spa itself is the hole that gets you back to the clubhouse. Little changes are made there, up until the recent changes by George Thomas-specialist, Mark Greenslit who happens to be the Ojai Director of Golf. The original 6th is now covered, in-whole by the new portion of the spa. The original 6th green now becomes a practice green--a place where you can go morn the loss of another GREAT George Thomas golf hole....and thus adding to the hypocracy of recovering the "Lost Holes".

A short walk to the original and Bell and Moorish routing, 7th tee (today's 10th)(Moorish's routing also)  takes you past the clubhouse. The hole represents nothing I've ever seen Bell or Thomas ever do, so figure that it's a Moorish hole reclaimed from those two slouches.

The original 8th(Moorish's routing also)(today's 11th) is altered further by Moorish and the 9th (today's 12th) is more or less close to original.

Have I put you to sleep yet on this Sunday night?

Now to the back nine....

The original 10th(Moorish's routing also)(today's 1st) has what seems to be some sort of Principle's Nose-like bunker resting on the hillside. You can see it there even today, only it's all grassed-in. That bunker, before the advent of driving range/practice facilities looked to be in the center of the fairway. Thus wanting you to carry it and get the closer angle to the hole. Otherwise you could aim left of it and roll further and further away from the hole. A Golf Digest Panelist would call this Risk/Reward.

The 11th(Bell & Moorish's routing also)(today's 2nd) is virtually the same, unchanged.
The 12th(Bell & Moorish's routing also)(today's 3rd) is virtually the same, unchanged.

Now the good stuff.... (albeit lost forever)

The 13th(Bell & Moorish's routing also)(today's 4th, looks to be an early predeccessor of Riviera #10-type strategy. Only the green isn't in today's locale, it's located directly at the edge of where the bathrooms and oak trees are, in that area. You can see a massive sand bunker just short left of the green, short left of the 14th (today's 5th tee) the fall-off from that green is similar to the fall-off that exists at the original 3rd. (aka One Of The Lost Holes), falling all the way down to the site of the 17th green way below.

For the original 14th(Bell & Moorish's routing also)  (today's 5th) the hole remains unchanged in routing or positioning, only it was the elimination of a massive mound short right of the green, similar in some ways, only in reverse to Bel Air's Mae West 12th which much like Ojai, is just another rape of a once great George Thomas course.

The 15th(Bell & Moorish's routing also)(today's 6th) is very close to the same, only the green was further back with a small dry creek bed in front of it. Also in thje face of that creek bed was what seems to be a very glamorous-looking Billy Bell bunker.

The 16th(Bell & Moorish's routing also)(today's 7th) had the green pushed back and pushed-up away from the same fronting creek by Billy Bell, more then likely victim of the Great Floods of 1937/1938 which terrorized all golf courses in SoCal. The hole is still pretty good, and when you standing on the green, look out to your left and you'll see what looks to be another angle of fairway coming in. that's because your literally below the tee shot on #14! (5th today)

Today's 17th(Bell & Moorish's routing also) is a completely different golf hole, although it is of the same length. Lynn will attest to the original which was an uphill, somewhat blind number to a newer Bell green, which was then again changed by Moorish. the tee was built up from what I can tell, by Moorish.

The 18th (Bell & Moorish's routing also)(today's 9th) is a somewhat mystfying changed golf hole. No real strategy to it today, but the bunkers were scattered on both sides when it was new.

There, the changes to Ojai. A once great course--a shadow of it's former self.

[James Bennett]

Tommy

that was great, sad but great.

By the way, it is not Sunday night, it is probably Monday night for you.  Has the public holiday (USA, not Australia) confused you?  I assume the public holiday is why the Douche Bank FedEx tour event finished on a Monday.

James B

[Tommy_Naccarato]

James,
Sunday, Monday, Tuesday, they're all the same, one day after another. One day at a time..... Why is it I can't go to sleep on this Tuesday morning?

[Brad Klein]

Tommy,

that's worth a Pulitizer. And an Anacin.

By the way, I know you hate the curtain of darkness that now hangs over Ojai, but don't blame the Moorish; blame Morrish.

You'll love this. After he did the first round of work in the late 1980s or so, Jay Morrish admitted to me that he had never known about the photos and drawings of Ojai in Thomas' "Golf Architecture in America."

[David Stamm]

You'll love this. After he did the first round of work in the late 1980s or so, Jay Morrish admitted to me that he had never known about the photos and drawings of Ojai in Thomas' "Golf Architecture in America."

Brad, I had heard this as well from Tommy actually. Really incredible. Most of people on this site aren't arch's and never will be, yet we know the book. How can a practicing arch not? Especially when he's working on one of his courses? Amazing! Quite sad, the info in Thomas' book on Ojai is great and the photo's are wonderful.

[David Stamm]

Tommy, thanks. I agree with James. That was great, but very sad. What's really strange about it for me is that the holes least changed were the ones I liked the most when I first played there. And I had a feeeling when playing today's 4th that it was possibly at one time a risk/reward short par 4 that was drivable. I guess on today's 6th I just assumed that the tee was moved up. I never thought about the green being closer to the creek. The original tee shot is shown in the book as you know and had a carry of about 100 yds that had to be made. Although today's 7th is still a really good hole, the photo of it in the book shows it being even better with the creek in play.

[David Stamm]

By the way, I know you hate the curtain of darkness that now hangs over Ojai, but don't blame the Moorish; blame Morrish.

 

Brad, I think Tommy was getting boorish and Moorish confused.

[Lynn_Shackelford]

Tommy, you should document this in a publication.  Maybe even here My Home Course.
Just don't say the changes by Moorish are whoorish, even if they are.
Also Tommy, didn't we see a bunch of Rustic Canyon style putts yesterday in Boston?

[Tommy_Naccarato]

From what I understand it was quite thrilling to hear about it. Unfortunately, being up  here in Tacoma, with drag racers on US Nationals weekend, I was subjected to watching that for two hours, until I passed out.

Much like Golf on TV, I find drag racing on TV to be much the same. I would rather be there doing it then watching it!

Brad, If I were to involve Bill Coore into this, then I would have to invent a whole new term, "Coorish....."

Gotta go get that Excendrin or Anacin!

[Tommy_Naccarato]

David, by the way, maybe we could go play this together--if I'm home--and I'll bring both an aerial and some cyanide. (Purple Koolaid)(Come my children, drink!)

[David Stamm]

David, by the way, maybe we could go play this together--if I'm home--and I'll bring both an aerial and some cyanide.

Let me know. That would be great. The aerial part.

[James Bennett]

The funniest things happened to me at Ojai.  I loved the routing, particularly of what is the front nine now.  The previous day I had concluded at the cartball courses with Tommy and Ed (?Sun Valley or the like).  The difference in approach to severe country routings on a modern and a golden-age course was significant.

The funny things were trying to get from the car park to the pro-shop (if you could find it).  Well, it is a very long, long walk going clockwise past the goods entrance.  I finally found it (there weren't many people there  that day as a light rain had fallen earlier - no-one to give you a clue as to where to go).

Then, it took me a long time to find the 10th tee (my first hole) around the other side of the clubhouse.

Then, when I had finished my round, I thought 'I won't go back to the car park the way I came in, that was obvioulsy wrong.  I'll go back the other way and keep going clockwise'.  Wrong.  I thought I wouldn't need to double back to the entrance near the 12th green (par 5).  Eventually I realised I did, after finding culdesac after culdesac of dead-end spa resort rooms.  This pobably took me 15 minutes which I would have preferred to have spent looking at Soule Park before darkness set in.

Worst car-park to pro-shop to starting and finishing holes routing/arrangement that I have experienced.  I needed a GPS!  Or at least a few signs.  And not just a spanish-influence painted tile.

James B

[Tommy_Naccarato]

James,
You probably didn't know this, but you in fact did need a Sherpa monk to get you from the valet parking to the pro shop. But what I find even more ironic is the motion picture, Lost Horizons was filmed on site! (No joke!)

My suggestion is next time enlist the services of one the greatest Sherpas that ever lived, Forrest Richardson. He is a guiding light, a beacon if you will. follow the light I say, Forest will lead you there and hopefully he'll also let you in on his secret of the Fountain of Youth.

That Forrest is one old Sherpa, so I must warn you: take him outside, past the Ojai Valley Inn gates and he'll turn to dust. How much will this cost me  for you to take him past those gates?

[David Stamm]

The funniest things happened to me at Ojai.  I loved the routing, particularly of what is the front nine now.  The previous day I had concluded at the cartball courses with Tommy and Ed (?Sun Valley or the like).  The difference in approach to severe country routings on a modern and a golden-age course was significant.

The funny things were trying to get from the car park to the pro-shop (if you could find it).  Well, it is a very long, long walk going clockwise past the goods entrance.  I finally found it (there weren't many people there  that day as a light rain had fallen earlier - no-one to give you a clue as to where to go).

Then, it took me a long time to find the 10th tee (my first hole) around the other side of the clubhouse.

Then, when I had finished my round, I thought 'I won't go back to the car park the way I came in, that was obvioulsy wrong.  I'll go back the other way and keep going clockwise'.  Wrong.  I thought I wouldn't need to double back to the entrance near the 12th green (par 5).  Eventually I realised I did, after finding culdesac after culdesac of dead-end spa resort rooms.  This pobably took me 15 minutes which I would have preferred to have spent looking at Soule Park before darkness set in.

Worst car-park to pro-shop to starting and finishing holes routing/arrangement that I have experienced.  I needed a GPS!  Or at least a few signs.  And not just a spanish-influence painted tile.

James B

James, it was funny reading this because I went through the same thing while there. You get so turned around you don't know which side is up. The pro shop is by far the hardest I've ever tried to find. It's not clearly marked and beacuse the first tee isn't exactly a tell tale sign of it being close by, you have to ask someone in uniform. And getting from the 9th green to the 10th tee is a chore. As you know, the course unfortunately is not walkable partly because of all this.