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Mike Golden

Mike Dasher likes Double Plateau greens
« on: September 02, 2007, 03:09:58 PM »
Highlands Reserve, a public course located south of Orlando, is a nice golf course that, while claiming to be a cross among Scottish links, Carolina Sand Hills, and traditional Florida golf is more of just a pretty solid, enjoyable course to play. And, for us dinosaurs that hate riding, they allow walking at all times.
 
The course features some pretty wild greens, with undulations everywhere.  They just aerated the greens this week so it is difficult to tell just how tough it is to putt right now with the greens being so slow.

One interesting feature, though, is that there are two Biarritz greens on the golf course (the 1st and one on the back nine), plus another green that has a similar configuration but is set up perpendicular to the fairway.

At a current greens fee of $25 (because of the aeration) including a cart (or $18, which is what I was charged), it's also a pretty good deal right now.

For anyone in the Orlando area I have a 7AM tee time on Monday and 3 openings so if anyone is interested in playing just show up before the tee time.
« Last Edit: September 06, 2007, 10:24:14 AM by Mike Golden »

ed_getka

Re:Mike Dasher likes Biarritz greens
« Reply #1 on: September 02, 2007, 03:21:31 PM »
Mike,
   Welcome back to the site you newbie you. 8) Thanks for bringing the course to our attention. Have fun on Monday, wish I could be there but work beckons.
"Perimeter-weighted fairways", The best euphemism for containment mounding I've ever heard.

John_Conley

Re:Mike Dasher likes Biarritz greens
« Reply #2 on: September 03, 2007, 11:26:03 PM »
Mike, good to see you posting.  I remember hearing you were here.  Rio, no?

I enjoy Highlands Reserve, Mike's first solo effort.  He did much of the work in the state for Arthur Hills.  Nice guy.  He even came and spoke to a group of students for me once.

My theory about H.R. is that he was commissioned to design a shorter course and saw to it that it was still able to defend par with those eccentric greens.

I prefer North Shore to Highlands, although the terrain isn't as interesting.  For his real gem in the area, try Eagle Dunes in Sorrento.  It is probably overrun in places by housing, but I called it a poor man's Sand Hills.  Eric Felker and I played it together.

RJ_Daley

Re:Mike Dasher likes Biarritz greens
« Reply #3 on: September 03, 2007, 11:33:48 PM »
Is that the course that was mentioned in Strawn's book, "Driving the Green", that Dasher was doing on the side, while the main Hills course was getting built?
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Mike Golden

Re:Mike Dasher likes Biarritz greens
« Reply #4 on: September 04, 2007, 08:09:16 AM »
Mike, good to see you posting.  I remember hearing you were here.  Rio, no?

I enjoy Highlands Reserve, Mike's first solo effort.  He did much of the work in the state for Arthur Hills.  Nice guy.  He even came and spoke to a group of students for me once.

My theory about H.R. is that he was commissioned to design a shorter course and saw to it that it was still able to defend par with those eccentric greens.

I prefer North Shore to Highlands, although the terrain isn't as interesting.  For his real gem in the area, try Eagle Dunes in Sorrento.  It is probably overrun in places by housing, but I called it a poor man's Sand Hills.  Eric Felker and I played it together.


Eagle Dunes sounds pretty interesting, if they allowed walking I would check it out, the same with North Shore.

Mike seems like a really good guy, I sent him an email about Highlands Reserve and got a reply in a few hours.  He doesn't think #1 is a Biarritz but I played the course again yesterday and it sure seems like one to me.

I wound up taking a virtual 8 month golf sabbatical so couldn't really count Rio Pinar as my home course, my annual membership expired at the end of August and I chose not to renew it.  I'm most likely moving to Atlanta shortly so am in a short term golf and career holding pattern right now.

Tom Roewer

Re:Mike Dasher likes Biarritz greens
« Reply #5 on: September 04, 2007, 08:23:10 AM »
Is that the course that was mentioned in Strawn's book, "Driving the Green", that Dasher was doing on the side, while the main Hills course was getting built?

I do know that Seville(now The Dunes ) outside of Brookville, Fl was the course that he took strawn to saying he thought it was there best.  It's been spoken of here before, a very very good routing, lots of exposed sand ala Pine Barrens.  in fact the back end of Seville property is across rt 98 from World woods entrance.  It's been in many recieverships and you never know about conditioning, but i've always thought it as good as PB.

Mike Dasher

Re:Mike Dasher likes Biarritz greens
« Reply #6 on: September 04, 2007, 08:42:18 AM »
I confess that I had no notion of what a Biarritz green was until Ron Whitten declared that sixteen at Highlands was one.  As I understand it, there is a hole in France that plays across a deep crevice therefore any green with a deep swale across it is a Biarritz green.  Could anyone elighten me as to how that historical connection was ever made?  

I like any abrupt feature in a green providing it can be mown without scalping and it provides for some fairly accessible, cuppable area adjacent to it.

Clyde Johnston

Re:Mike Dasher likes Biarritz greens
« Reply #7 on: September 04, 2007, 09:10:28 AM »
Mike:

The name came from a course in France named Golf de Biarritz (NLE), designed by Willie and Tom Dunn. They had a par 3 which played over a ravine to a long elevated green. The green was divided in half by a deep swale at a right angle to the line of play. The swale in the green was about four feet deep.
« Last Edit: September 04, 2007, 09:53:40 AM by Clyde Johnston »

Mike Golden

Re:Mike Dasher likes Biarritz greens
« Reply #8 on: September 04, 2007, 09:30:41 AM »
I confess that I had no notion of what a Biarritz green was until Ron Whitten declared that sixteen at Highlands was one.  As I understand it, there is a hole in France that plays across a deep crevice therefore any green with a deep swale across it is a Biarritz green.  Could anyone elighten me as to how that historical connection was ever made?  

I like any abrupt feature in a green providing it can be mown without scalping and it provides for some fairly accessible, cuppable area adjacent to it.

Mike, I had no idea you had even heard of GCA when I emailed you so was pleased to see you post on this thread.

By the way, I really like the par 5's at Highlands Reserve, they are all somewhat reachable in 2 from the back tees but all I have done in the few rounds there is wind up making bogies or doubles when going for it.  That waste bunker on #8 is really deceptive from the fairway.

Clyde Johnston

Re:Mike Dasher likes Biarritz greens
« Reply #9 on: September 04, 2007, 09:35:33 AM »
Here's a couple of pics from Fox Chapel

Hole 17 Par 3 223 Yards


Side view of green
« Last Edit: September 04, 2007, 09:37:15 AM by Clyde Johnston »

RJ_Daley

Re:Mike Dasher likes Biarritz greens
« Reply #10 on: September 04, 2007, 12:00:19 PM »
Mike Dasher, thanks for taking time to write on GCA.  We are all happy I'm sure to have another gent from the design-construction biz participate.
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

A.G._Crockett

Re:Mike Dasher likes Biarritz greens
« Reply #11 on: September 04, 2007, 01:41:37 PM »
Here's a couple of pics from Fox Chapel

Hole 17 Par 3 223 Yards


Side view of green


Clyde,
Wow, what a green!  At 223, I imagine that players at Fox Chapel look forward to/dread that hole the entire round.  Just beautiful.
"Golf...is usually played with the outward appearance of great dignity.  It is, nevertheless, a game of considerable passion, either of the explosive type, or that which burns inwardly and sears the soul."      Bobby Jones

Clyde Johnston

Re:Mike Dasher likes Biarritz greens
« Reply #12 on: September 04, 2007, 01:51:56 PM »
A.G.

I got that yardage from the scorecard I saved when I played there a few years ago. The card also indicates another "Middle Tee" at 177, which is where we played from.

Fun course to play - full of template holes.

Keith Williams

Re:Mike Dasher likes Biarritz greens
« Reply #13 on: September 04, 2007, 02:05:22 PM »
That's neat to see Mike Dasher come in here and comment on one of his courses.

I'll go ahead and echo support of Highlands Reserve.  From my limited exposure to the course it looks like they keep the greens consistenly slow, but it is always a really fun course to play; lots of variety and topography (and a great deal).

I have heard John C. speak highly of Eagle Dunes many times, so despite its location, I'm aiming to get out and see it next time I'm in town.

With all of his good work in the area, can anyone (Mike D. included) comment on his new work at a development called Providence down in Davenport?  During development it sounded like it was going to be pretty good, but I haven't seen anything on it since.

Keith.
« Last Edit: September 04, 2007, 02:06:24 PM by Keith Williams »

Richard Boult

Re:Mike Dasher likes Biarritz greens
« Reply #14 on: September 04, 2007, 02:23:34 PM »
New to golf, gca, and this site, I'm being introduced to many new terms I have to look up. I was recently reading news about Doak's new "Old Macdonald" course at Bandon, a tribute to Charles Blair Macdonald, which will draw inspiration from Macdonald's celebrated design elements, like Alps and Redan holes, and Biarritz greens.

Alps, Redan and Biarritz were all new terms to me... Here's what I found online:

Alps - Specifically refers to the par-4 17th hole at Prestwick; also generally refers to a hole mimicking the “Alps” hole with an approach shot that must carry a very large mound that blocks the view to the green.

Biarritz - A biarritz, or biarritz green, is a green that features a deep gully bisecting its middle. The gully, which is manicured the same as the rest of the green, usually runs from side-to-side, but sometimes runs from front to back. A biarritz is especially challenging when the hole is cut on one side of the gully and your ball is sitting on the other side, requiring a long putt that must travel down the gully then up its other side to reach the hole. Some golfers choose to pitch over the gully rather than putt through it. The name "biarritz" come from the golf course in France where the first-known biarritz was constructed, Biarritz Golf Club. The club's La Phare Course is home to the original biarritz.

Redan - A redan hole - or, simply, redan - is a type of golf hole that is among the most copied on golf courses around the world. The key is the green and greens complex. A redan hole is typically a par-3. Its green is wider than it is deep and angles diagonally away from the tee box right-to-left (that is, the left side of the green is farther from the tee box than the right side). A redan hole's green slopes from front-to-back and from right to left, and is protected by bunkers on the left and right fronts. Redan holes are so-called because they are all copies of the original, which is No. 15 on the West Links at North Berwick Golf Links in Scotland. That hole is named "Redan."

John_Conley

Re:Mike Dasher likes Biarritz greens
« Reply #15 on: September 05, 2007, 05:19:59 PM »
I confess that I had no notion of what a Biarritz green was until Ron Whitten declared that sixteen at Highlands was one.  As I understand it, there is a hole in France that plays across a deep crevice therefore any green with a deep swale across it is a Biarritz green.  Could anyone elighten me as to how that historical connection was ever made?  

Sixteen at H.R. is definitely one!  Raynor's penchant for the Biarritz is well-known.  His course at Minnesota Valley CC has one Biarritz green on a par 4 instead of the long par 3 where it would have "made sense".  

So Mike, you weren't the first to do a Biarritz green on a par 4!  It does stand out, however.

I'm interested in your thoughts on Providence.  

John_Conley

Re:Mike Dasher likes Biarritz greens
« Reply #16 on: September 05, 2007, 05:22:08 PM »
Eagle Dunes sounds pretty interesting, if they allowed walking I would check it out, the same with North Shore.

Mike seems like a really good guy, I sent him an email about Highlands Reserve and got a reply in a few hours.  He doesn't think #1 is a Biarritz but I played the course again yesterday and it sure seems like one to me.

I wound up taking a virtual 8 month golf sabbatical so couldn't really count Rio Pinar as my home course, my annual membership expired at the end of August and I chose not to renew it.  I'm most likely moving to Atlanta shortly so am in a short term golf and career holding pattern right now.

M.G., you certainly are mobile.  Good luck in Atlanta.  Pensy to O-town to Atlanta.  Where next!?

North Shore is a course I've walked a bunch.  They were pretty cool about it when it first opened.  No idea about Eagle Dunes.  If you do hoof it you'll be surprised by how hilly it is.  About 2 miles S of Black Bear.

Mike Dasher

Re:Mike Dasher likes Biarritz greens
« Reply #17 on: September 06, 2007, 08:27:33 AM »
Mike Golden:
As far as I know, Northshore still allows walking, Eagle Dunes does not although it is very walkable, close green to tee proximity except for nine green to ten tee (500')

Have your chiropractor write a letter that says you are physically unable to ride in a cart for eighteen holes and you should be allowed to walk, that is unless they want the full force of the federal governmment (ADA) down on them.

John Conley:
Providence has a website:
http://www.providence-golf.com

The terrain is similar to Northshore except one hole on the back (fifteen) plays onto some interesting ridgeland so we tried to recreate that on 3, 4 and the start of 5 on the front to get the same feel on both nines.

I patterned sixteen at Highlands after the double plateau green on sixteen at North Berwick.  Its hard for me it imagine some hole in France predates much in Scotland so untill someone corrects my thinking it is not a Biarittz!

John_Cullum

Re:Mike Dasher likes Biarritz greens
« Reply #18 on: September 06, 2007, 09:21:48 AM »
I find it very refreshing that an accomplished golf course architect is unfamiliar with the Raynor template.

Mike D, keep doing it your way. I fear Davis Love is destined  to become the next Desmond Muirhead with his retro-rossner design philosophy.
"We finally beat Medicare. "

Mike Golden

Re:Mike Dasher likes Biarritz greens
« Reply #19 on: September 06, 2007, 10:26:24 AM »
Mike Golden:
As far as I know, Northshore still allows walking, Eagle Dunes does not although it is very walkable, close green to tee proximity except for nine green to ten tee (500')

Have your chiropractor write a letter that says you are physically unable to ride in a cart for eighteen holes and you should be allowed to walk, that is unless they want the full force of the federal governmment (ADA) down on them.

John Conley:
Providence has a website:
http://www.providence-golf.com

The terrain is similar to Northshore except one hole on the back (fifteen) plays onto some interesting ridgeland so we tried to recreate that on 3, 4 and the start of 5 on the front to get the same feel on both nines.

I patterned sixteen at Highlands after the double plateau green on sixteen at North Berwick.  Its hard for me it imagine some hole in France predates much in Scotland so untill someone corrects my thinking it is not a Biarittz!

Mike, thanks for the chiropractor tip, it's the best laugh I've had all week. ;D

And I bow to your wisdom regarding the template for #16 at Highlands Reserve and have renamed this thread appropriately.

If anyone is up for a game at North Shore in the next week let me know, I'm most likely leaving for Atlanta on or about September 18.

Tony_Muldoon

Re:Mike Dasher likes Double Plateau greens
« Reply #20 on: September 06, 2007, 10:58:48 AM »
For those who missed links in the past, the original Biarritz is the ‘holy grail’ of GCA. Apparently it’s position made it impossible to photograph and it’s now been built over. The best reference on all of this is George Bahto’s ‘Evangelist of Golf’.


edit
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forums2/index.php?board=1;action=display;threadid=21926  

However some have suggested that this hole at North Berwick (16) was as much MacDonald’s inspiration.


« Last Edit: September 06, 2007, 02:14:59 PM by Tony Muldoon »
2025 Craws Nest Tassie, Carnoustie.

Jim Nugent

Re:Mike Dasher likes Double Plateau greens
« Reply #21 on: September 06, 2007, 03:09:19 PM »
Tony, not long ago the question came up if the original Biarritz really was a Biarritz.  Would like to know the answer to that question.  

Mike Golden

Re:Mike Dasher likes Double Plateau greens
« Reply #22 on: September 15, 2007, 12:35:10 PM »
bump.

in answer to a now ignored poster suggesting I never contribute anything of substance to this site.

I would think an innocuous thread like this that not only gets posts from the course architect but another professional counts as at least something of substance unless I am in a alternat universe.

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