Midwest PacDunes

[Brian Cenci]

I will offer up two potential public-access Midwest alternatives to Bandon, that may offer up a vaguely similar experience...

1)  Erin Hills/Lawsonia, Wisconsin--granted they are not in the same complex, but for the same combined price as one summer round at Bandon, these can be done together in a day or at worst on a quick two-day.  The feeling of isolation, such as one can get in the Heartland, is pretty solid at each of these

2)  Wild Horse, Nebraska--while I have not been there (yet!), my favorite WI policeman assures me that this is a great get-away and one can really get absorbed in the atmosphere. Certainly the wide-open feeling and the playing conditions can be reminiscent of Bandon.  My suspicion is that the cost of getting there, + the multiple rounds, may still be less than just one summer round at Bandon...

Just a couple of thoughts...

Anyone that suggests that Lawsonia is in the same class of Pacific, Bandon, Whistling, Arcadia, etc. is crazy.

[Brian Cenci]

A few years ago I cut out an article about Lakewood Shores Resort in Oscondo. Never been there but it sounded  promising.

And if I can drive to Wild Horse from Oregon, surely you coould get there in less time from Michigan. Just head away from Ohio and you'll feel more relaxed.

I've played Arcadia and Bay Harbor, didn't feel any vibes. I did at Kingsley and Black Forest, HIgh Pointe

We're you on valium when yu played Arcadia or something?  The best public in Michigan (in order) are: Arcadia, Greywalls, Forest Dunes, Bay Harbor on the private side are Crystal, Dunes Club, Kingsley, Oakland

[JC Jones]

Im curious as to what about Bay Harbor that causes you to rank it the 4th best public in Michigan unless your criteria is based on elevated tees and vistas.

Its not that Arcadia is a terrible course, but seriously, I expect a lot more from the 10th ranked public course in the country and I maintain that if you take the course away from lake michigan, it isnt even on the radar.

[Peter Pratt]

I know this is getting off topic, but I would highly recommend the Gailes at Lakewood Shores in Oscoda. I've played it 15-20 times, last in late July, when it was, unfortunately, playing slower than I'd ever seen it--overwatering in the drought?

I'd put the Gailes in the top 5 public courses in Michigan, and I think I've played all the contenders but Greywalls. I like it much better than Forest Dunes.

[Brian Cenci]

I know this is getting off topic, but I would highly recommend the Gailes at Lakewood Shores in Oscoda. I've played it 15-20 times, last in late July, when it was, unfortunately, playing slower than I'd ever seen it--overwatering in the drought?

I'd put the Gailes in the top 5 public courses in Michigan, and I think I've played all the contenders but Greywalls. I like it much better than Forest Dunes.

I agree with your Gailes comment.  Solid course. It's top 5ish public in Michigan.  I like Forest Dunes better but to each his own.

[Pete_Pittock]

Brian,
   Who is the architect at Arcadia Bluffs? When I played that was under debate. I certainly didn't downgrade it on that basis. No disrespect, but AB and Bay Harbor were dumb blondish (tm), no real substance underneath.
   

[Tom_Doak]

Brian:

Apparently from your rankings, great greens contouring is not as high a priority for you as for some other observers.  Everyone's entitled to their own opinion on such matters, of course, but I think that's why your own rankings vary so much with some of the other opinions stated so far.  Pawning it off on "architectural favoritism" is a cheap excuse.

[Anthony_Nysse]

Gentleman,
  Ok, let the fun begin. All this talk about “I maintain that if you take the course (Arcadia) away from Lake Michigan, it isn’t even on the radar.” Seriously, how is that ANY different than Pac Dunes? Is Pac Dunes “all that and a bag of chips” without the ocean, or does everyone assume greatness because of the architect? Very similar to the debate about C&C’s course at Bandon…is it really that good, are people assuming because of who designed it? Take the ocean away from Kiawah, Harbor Town, Pebble Beach, Spyglass, etc…that’s the luck of the land. Maidstone would be NOTHING without the ocean and dunes. Those are good pieces of property that architect were fortunate enough to work with.
  Arcadia is LOADED with shot values and terrific greens. Who gives 2 shits if it isn’t walkable? A golf course DOES NOT need to be walked to be good. It doesn’t make the holes any less or better. Wade Hampton, Castle Pines, Black Diamond and The Sanctuary are not very walkable-does that take away from the golf? You never hear people talk about the routing at Doak’s Lost Dunes course in Michigan, having the first tee located 1/2 mile from the clubhouse…that doesn’t seem too walkable to me. Another Doak course that isn’t very walkable, similar to Arcadia, is Wilderness Valley. Doesn’t make the holes any worse, though.
  So many people are caught up on fescue laced bunkers, crazy greens, Doak designs, walkability-Believe it or not, there is greatness without ANY of these.  So many of us aren’t seeing architecture because were caught up in the fact that we have to take a cart, or one of our favorite architects didn’t design it. Does the over manicuring of Augusta take away from its architecture? I don’t think so. Does the flawless conditioning at Kinloch and its lesser known architect take away from its shot qualities? I don’t think so. We forget that EVERY architect was less known at one point, even Doak himself. Too many of us are bias, hense the bashing of Fazio, Jones, Nicklaus, Engh and even Dye at times. They compile 46 of Golfweek's Top 100 modern...something must be right...
  Pete-Open those eyes! Chambers Bay looks a lot like Arcadia Bluffs. I’m just waiting to for someone to say, “If they take away the bay from Chamber’s Bay…”
Tom-Is Bethpage Black a lesser course to you because it’s greens contouring is very subtle? What about Kinloch?
  Having lived in Michigan for over 20 years, Arcadia Bluffs is by far the best public course in Michigan.  It’s neck and neck with Whistling Straits as the best public course in the Midwest and is definitely better than ANYTHING that we have here in South Carolina, Harbour Town included.

Tony Nysse
Sr. Asst. Supt.
Long Cove Club
HHI, SC

[Peter_Herreid]

I will offer up two potential public-access Midwest alternatives to Bandon, that may offer up a vaguely similar experience...

1)  Erin Hills/Lawsonia, Wisconsin--granted they are not in the same complex, but for the same combined price as one summer round at Bandon, these can be done together in a day or at worst on a quick two-day.  The feeling of isolation, such as one can get in the Heartland, is pretty solid at each of these

2)  Wild Horse, Nebraska--while I have not been there (yet!), my favorite WI policeman assures me that this is a great get-away and one can really get absorbed in the atmosphere. Certainly the wide-open feeling and the playing conditions can be reminiscent of Bandon.  My suspicion is that the cost of getting there, + the multiple rounds, may still be less than just one summer round at Bandon...

Just a couple of thoughts...

Anyone that suggests that Lawsonia is in the same class of Pacific, Bandon, Whistling, Arcadia, etc. is crazy.

Brian--

How 'bout you read my post before you criticize it!

Exactly where did I say that Lawsonia was in the same class as anything.  I see that I specifically offered it up as an alternative as a course that offered the "vaguest similarity" to the spaciousness of the Bandon courses--

Nowhere did I say it was better, worse or even in the same class as any of the other courses anybody else has mentioned.

I certainly was not attacking any of the other courses you noted;  only suggesting to JC Jones(potentially) less expensive options in what some people consider to be the "Midwest" than Whistling Straits...

Try reading something twice before shooting your mouth off...

[Daryl "Turboe" Boe]

I am going to petition someone to change the term Midwest.
I live in South Dakota and to get to Lansing I have to drive almost 20 hours east.  Michigan, Ohio, and any state east of the Missisippi should be calle the MIDEAST.  When I think of the WEST I think of cowboy and Indian movies.  

You tell'em Ron!

I have had this discussion many times when I moved from Gods Country out to PA after college, people were always calling OH "The Midwest", and I had to protest.  

To me the term "Midwest" by its very stems certainly connotates that you are refering to some sub portion of the West.  And since (as you are probably aware) the geographical center of the country is in SD (out near Onieda on Hwy 14 as I recall) then you certainly cant be talking about the middle of the west until you get west of the center of the country.  Owing for the Blue Staters Northeastern Bias, and weighting for population I will let the line for the Midwest slide as far east as to incorporate MN, IA, etc., but we must draw the line somewhere.

I might have considered WI at one time had some guy in a Packers hat not hit into us this week at Myrtle Beach on a par 4 when we were still on the green, no different than a common Yankee would do.  Therefore (sorry Dick) but WI must be lopped off and considered to be part of the "Middle East" from now on.

[JC Jones]

Gentleman,
  Ok, let the fun begin. All this talk about “I maintain that if you take the course (Arcadia) away from Lake Michigan, it isn’t even on the radar.” Seriously, how is that ANY different than Pac Dunes? Is Pac Dunes “all that and a bag of chips” without the ocean, or does everyone assume greatness because of the architect? Very similar to the debate about C&C’s course at Bandon…is it really that good, are people assuming because of who designed it? Take the ocean away from Kiawah, Harbor Town, Pebble Beach, Spyglass, etc…that’s the luck of the land. Maidstone would be NOTHING without the ocean and dunes. Those are good pieces of property that architect were fortunate enough to work with.

Seriously?  Pac Dunes is only great because of the Ocean?  Was Doak as well known and widely respected when he designed Pac Dunes or did his design at Pac Dunes elevate his status?  I dont think Arcadia gave Henderson or Rick Smith or whomever designed it the same result?  Did it?

I dont think it is a stretch to assume that a course can be great irrespective of the fact that it is water and conversely, I dont think it is a stretch to assume that the view of a large body of water can elevate a mediocre design.

Walkability has nothing to do with my criticism of Arcadia and Bay Harbor.  18 consecutive elevated tees to make sure you can see the water from 14 tee boxes leads me to believe that the vistas are more important than the holes themselves.  Is Arcadia devoid of good holes, absolutely not.  I also find it ironic that one of the best holes out there (#2), imo, provides no view of the water.

You knocking Doak and C&C courses simply because Doak and C&C designed them is no different than the people you are calling out who knock Engh, Nicklaus, etc. simply because they designed the course.  However, I think your knock on Trails is unfair and to prove that the designer doesnt inflate the ranking of the course, I would only offer High Pointe, Charlotte and black forest as examples.

I disagree that Arcadia is the best public in Michigan and Im pretty sure Im allowed to do that.

[Jim Nugent]

I am going to petition someone to change the term Midwest.
I live in South Dakota and to get to Lansing I have to drive almost 20 hours east.  Michigan, Ohio, and any state east of the Missisippi should be calle the MIDEAST.  When I think of the WEST I think of cowboy and Indian movies.  

You tell'em Ron!

I have had this discussion many times when I moved from Gods Country out to PA after college, people were always calling OH "The Midwest", and I had to protest.  

To me the term "Midwest" by its very stems certainly connotates that you are refering to some sub portion of the West.  And since (as you are probably aware) the geographical center of the country is in SD (out near Onieda on Hwy 14 as I recall) then you certainly cant be talking about the middle of the west until you get west of the center of the country.  Owing for the Blue Staters Northeastern Bias, and weighting for population I will let the line for the Midwest slide as far east as to incorporate MN, IA, etc., but we must draw the line somewhere.

I might have considered WI at one time had some guy in a Packers hat not hit into us this week at Myrtle Beach on a par 4 when we were still on the green, no different than a common Yankee would do.  Therefore (sorry Dick) but WI must be lopped off and considered to be part of the "Middle East" from now on.

Here is how the American Heritage dictionary defines "Midwest":

"A region of the north-central United States around the Great Lakes and the upper Mississippi Valley. It is generally considered to include Ohio, Indiana, Illinois, Michigan, Wisconsin, Minnesota, Iowa, Missouri, Kansas, and Nebraska. The area is known for its rich farmlands and highly industrialized centers."

And here is a brief explanation of why...

"In the early 19th Century, anything west of the Mississippi River was considered the West, and the Midwest was the region west of the Appalachians and east of the Mississippi. In time, some users began to include Minnesota, Iowa and Missouri, and with the settlement of the western prairie, a new term, "Great Plains States," was used for the row of states from North Dakota to Kansas. Later, these states annexed themselves unofficially to the Midwest. Today, the term "Far West" means the West Coast, and people as far west as the prairie sections of Colorado, Wyoming and Montana sometimes identify themselves with the term Midwest."

[Anthony_Nysse]

JC,
  I'll allow you to think that Arcadia isn't the best public course in Michigan. You are entitled to your own opinion about what you may think is the best public course in Michigan, but please humor me and tell what you think is. Tullymore isn’t bad, but having played them on back to back days, it’s doesn’t hold to Arcadia. Black Lake is a nice round, but it isn’t special, Shepard’s Hollow is the best course in the Detroit area, which isn’t saying too much. Forest Dunes is making some very good noise and your own Lansing based Eagle Eye is a good offering for the Lansing area, anything is better than another Jerry Matthews, right?
  Please read my previous post again. Nowhere in there did I state that "Pac Dunes is only great because of the Ocean." Everyone says that Arcadia wouldn’t be any good if it wasn't for Lake Michigan. I stated that the same COULD be said for Kiawah, Harbor Town, Pebble Beach, Spyglass and Maidstone.
 Absolutely, without a doubt, Doak was a little unknown before Pac...Without a doubt. He was known for writing a book.  He was similar to Mike Devries in that he did a lot of consulting, but was waiting for his real, big break outside of Michigan…and like Doak, Mike will get his. He’s too talented.  Funny, if you think about it, did people outside of Michigan really know about High Point or Black Forrest before Doak hit it big? That's an easy answer.
  I'm not knocking the work of the minimal architects at all. Mind you, I spend 2 summers working at Friar's Head with C&C and I do enjoy the minimal look, I just get worn out because so many people think those type of courses are bulletproof.
And just so you know, Warren Henderson, designer of Arcadia is doing a lot of overseas stuff for Nick Price...kind of like Doak did after some much deserved respect and accolades. Mind you Doak did a lot of work outside the US in Barnbougle Dunes, The Golf Club @St. Andrews Beach and Cape Kidnappers.
  Lastly, think about Arcadia again...there are at least 5 tee shots that are a bit uphill, not facing the water.

Tony Nysse
Sr. Asst. Supt.
Long Cove Club
HHI, SC

[ed_getka]

I find it amusing when people come on here and devalue other's opinions for some sort of perceived bias, and yet the same person who claims there is bias doesn't generally give any examples to support their viewpoint. Don't just tell us that X is better than Y, or take away the water and the course would never be heard of. What is the architecture on the ground that shapes that opinion?
    The best way to find courses you will enjoy playing is by getting out and meeting fellow GCA'ers and finding out what they like and don't like about courses. Over time you will find opinions you value and others you will ignore. I haven't played a single course that I requested feedback on since coming to GCA that I didn't enjoy.
   I always love it when the justification for courses and architects greatness is the number of courses they have in the top whatever in the rankings.

[Anthony_Nysse]

Ed,
  I have NEVER said that if you take the water away from course X, it wouldn't be anything special. SO many people knock Arcadia Bluffs and MANY say that "if you took the water away...." All I have said is that the same could be true for many course throughout the world and Amercia.
  Ed, shouldn't all architects strive to produce courses that are "op this" and "top that?" It can only help promote themselves as an architect, promote their style course. Positive reviews and publicity can only make golfers curious, therefore they will take a chance to play a course, giving the ower(s) a better chance to be succesful. Some of the courses that we find in remote locations-would we really drive to "BFE" if the course wasn't designed by "X" or had positive reviews in Magazine "Y?" Think abou it...

Tony Nysse
Sr. Asst. Supt.
Long Cove Club
HHI, SC

[ed_getka]

Tony,
    I wasn't directing my comments just at you (except the ratings one). I have heard enough opinions on AB to know that some people really like it and others don't think it is that great. I have stood on that property, walked around and looked at 5 or 6 holes, and at the prices they wanted I just didn't feel compelled to go out and golf. I don't doubt for a minute that the course will test one's golf game, but it just didn't look like a course that I would feel I got my money's worth on. I continue to read posts about the course hoping to read something that will intrigue me to plunk down my hard-earned money, but it hasn't happened yet. This opinion has nothing to do with the architects who designed it because I didn't even know who they were until I read it in this thread.
   If you don't mind, pick out your favorite hole at AB and describe what you like it about it so much. I'll be up that way next month.

[Buck Wolter]

I'll take Ed's challenge.

#14
http://www.arcadiabluffs.com/course_hole_14.php

One of the shorter par 4's at Arcadia Bluffs and it plays away from the lake so there's no 'lake effect'. JakaB will be happy to know there's no drivable Par 4 at AB.

From the back tees a big hitter has to work the ball right to left on a typically downwind hole. Large 'dunes' down the left make a pull/hook a bad play and a deep bunker on the right forces the big hitter to work the ball or take less club.

A shorter hitter doesn't worry about the bunker from the back tees but if the tee shot doesn't get far enough right he won't be able to see the green and will have to take the ball over the dunes to a very tough green.

On the approach you have a relatively short iron into a very elevated green  ~ 15 ft above the fairway with a very penal front sod faced bunker but given the short iron approach it strikes me as appropriate. The back half of the green is a punchbowl that allows you to take plenty of club to avoid the bunker but still be rewarded -- not obvious the first time you play it.

If you're on the back and the pins up front it'll be a tough lag and vice versa but a well thought out drive and approach is rewarded with a good chance for birdie. A bad drive or approach is punished. The whole time you can feel the lake at your back!

One Man's opinion.

Buck

[RJ_Daley]

JC, while these guys are arguing about which states belong in the mid-west, and whether Arcadia can be spoken in the same sentence as PacD, do yourself a small favor.   From your base in Lansing, fill up the tank in your hummer or prius, drive down I-69 30miles or so, get off and west on 94 30 more to the Zoo, go south on Sprinkle rd to Vicksburg 11 more, and run into Angels Crossing.  Plunk your < $75 down and play it.  If you like it, play it again.  Get in your car, go home and think about it.  If it wasn't worth 1/2 tank of gas, and less than the freight at Arcadia for two rounds, and a day to go play fun golf, I'll eat my cheese hat.

[RJ_Daley]

PS: No... I didn't say it was a midwest PacDunes, although I never actually played PacDunes.  But still....