I know Donald Trump loves him, but has Jim Fazio...

[Mike_Cirba]

...ever designed a good golf hole?

Admittedly, I know some of the Golf Digest crowd loves his stuff, and I've only played two of his courses but I'm still looking for my first.

I had so hoped that the course of his I'd played in PA was a one off.

[Michael Christensen]

how about #7 at Barnsley....that is a pretty good hole...tough right to left drive....augusta feel to 2nd shot....

[Mike_Cirba]

Michael,

I knew you were out there.  

BG is perhaps the best conditioned course I've ever played prior to playing Tom Fazio's Atunyote course a few week back.

It's also gorgeous to look at.

As far as golf holes....I guess in retrospect I really liked the par three third and was probably disappointed that there was nothing else so naturally bold on such a severe property.

[Adam Clayman]

While he only made two site visits, El Diablo in central Florida has some peaches. Although, I hear the place is on the slide, conditioning wise.

[A.G._Crockett]

I'll second Michael C. on Barnsley.  I thought that the par threes as a group were excellent, and the course in general very solid.  I don't think it is a "great" golf course, but certainly good, and I liked it much, much more than most of what I have seen from certain of his relatives.

I have not played Currahee, so I'll defer on that.

[Mike_Cirba]

I'll second Michael C. on Barnsley.  I thought that the par threes as a group were excellent, and the course in general very solid.  I don't think it is a "great" golf course, but certainly good, and I liked it much, much more than most of what I have seen from certain of his relatives.

A.G.

I can't agree.   I think the 3rd is really good, but then the 8th and 14th are HUGE drop shots, probably in the range of 40-80 feet?  

I'm not a big fan of the drop shot, especially with a 3 iron, as in the case of the 8th.

17 is a garden-variety par three over water.

As far as the non-par three holes, you have back to back double-dogleg par fives on 9 & 10, you have very, very awkward dogleg par fours all over the place, an unwalkable routing and property, and...well...it is beautiful and unbelievably well-conditioned.

[JESII]

While he only made two site visits, El Diablo in central Florida has some peaches. Although, I hear the place is on the slide, conditioning wise.

I'd agree that El Diablo is a good solid course for the Sunshine State.

Not sure what two visits mean, and not sure how to answer MikeC's other questions, but to me it is a good golf course in the land of mediocrity...

[A.G._Crockett]

MikeC.
I respect your opinion so much that I will make it a point to get back there as soon as I can and see it again with a critical eye.  I don't recollect awkward doglegs, but I'm willing to be wrong, and you are certainly right about it being unwalkable, though I'm not sure that is Fazio's fault.  I actually have a pass to play for only a cart fee, so I have additional motivation there.

[Mike_Cirba]

A.G.,

I don't think I was being too tough on it, but it seems to me that the land was probably too severe to ever have a good golf course built on it.  

Rather than go straight down, it seems the routing had to have a bunch of doglegs after the 3rd, so that it tacked down the mountainside.  

I had no idea what the freight was there, either, when I played, and the shop wasn't open yet so they said go out and pay when you come back in.

I pretty much hated it, even though I finished 3, 3, 3.

Then I walked in the pro shop and coughed up something like $135, which stung considering that I played Plantation GC in Carterville the day before for something like $20 and kinda liked Plantation better.  

[A.G._Crockett]

A.G.,

I don't think I was being too tough on it, but it seems to me that the land was probably too severe to ever have a good golf course built on it.  

Rather than go straight down, it seems the routing had to have a bunch of doglegs after the 3rd, so that it tacked down the mountainside.  

I had no idea what the freight was there, either, when I played, and the shop wasn't open yet so they said go out and pay when you come back in.

I pretty much hated it, even though I finished 3, 3, 3.

Then I walked in the pro shop and coughed up something like $135, which stung considering that I played Plantation GC in Carterville the day before for something like $20 and kinda liked Plantation better.  

Mike,
Cool story about Plantation.  

It was originally 9 holes (the current front nine) and named Royal Oaks until just a couple of years ago.  The three guys who were owners aimed to expand it to 18 holes, and supposedly a GCA (whose name is lost to me now) looked at the property once and drew the back nine literally on the back of an envelope, after which the owners built it themselves.  

All of this was back in the early '80's, when there was essentially NO public golf north of the perimeter and NO affordable private golf on the north end of metro Atlanta, and my teacher/coach buddies and I played a zillion rounds up there and had a lot of fun for very, very little cash outlay.  Very, very fond memories of the place, and I still go there every now and then.  For what it is, it is a very solid layout with very few holes that don't provide both interest and challenge.

You've got to be one of the few, few people in PA who know what and where that place is!

[Mike_Cirba]

A.G.

Yes, Plantation has some wonderful landforms out there, and they are truly well utilized, even if some of the man-made features are a bit amateurish in places.

The scoop I got from Cornish & Whitten was that the first nine was designed by the team of Arthur Davis, Ron Kirby, and Gary Player, back when they were a design team in about 1974.  I think they did Stouffer PineIsle at around the same time.

Other sources show the course as being designed by Arthur Davis and one David Bingman (who may have also designed St. George in Utah?) and opening about 5 years later in 1979.

I'm not sure about the newest nine, but I believe a local fellow named Bryan Evans was heavily involved. ...I was going to send them a note for more info.

[A.G._Crockett]

Mike,
I'd bet pretty heavily on the 1974 date, at least.  I moved to the area in 1980 and started going up there pretty shortly thereafter, and I think the front nine had already been there awhile, certainly more than a year.  I've seen both Davis and Bingham listed, never Kirby or Player.  Davis did a number of other courses in the NW GA area, both 9 and 18 holes, so that is very easy to believe.  Honestly, I thought the Bingham name was one of the owners; didn't know that he was a GCA at all.

I've liked everything of Davis' that I've seen.  A couple of notable ones are Stonebridge in Rome and Fields Ferry in Calhoun.  Stonebridge hosts a number of GSGA events and is on the "Thrifty 50" list that one of the mags does.  Both courses are just excellent and GREAT values to boot.

This is SO cool!  I cannot believe that I am discussing Royal Oaks (nee Plantation) with a guy from Philly.  Unreal, and ONLY on this website.

[Michael Christensen]

a 3 on #18 on Barnsley is pretty impressive....it is a very tough second shot

I agree with all opinions here.....the land probably wasn't suited for a golf course, but it has some of the best greens in georgia (for a semi-private course).....it is probably an average resort course, but I love the stretch from #4 to #7....

[Mike_Cirba]

Michael,

I managed to pull 2 good back to back shots and a curling 15 footer out of my rear on 18.

Agreed about the greens...they are absolute lightning.

[Daryl "Turboe" Boe]

Mike,
I'd bet pretty heavily on the 1974 date, at least.  I moved to the area in 1980 and started going up there pretty shortly thereafter, and I think the front nine had already been there awhile, certainly more than a year.  I've seen both Davis and Bingham listed, never Kirby or Player.  Davis did a number of other courses in the NW GA area, both 9 and 18 holes, so that is very easy to believe.  Honestly, I thought the Bingham name was one of the owners; didn't know that he was a GCA at all.

I've liked everything of Davis' that I've seen.  A couple of notable ones are Stonebridge in Rome and Fields Ferry in Calhoun.  Stonebridge hosts a number of GSGA events and is on the "Thrifty 50" list that one of the mags does.  Both courses are just excellent and GREAT values to boot.

This is SO cool!  I cannot believe that I am discussing Royal Oaks (nee Plantation) with a guy from Philly.  Unreal, and ONLY on this website.

How long ago did Royal Oaks become Plantation?  I have not played it since the change.

Also Fields Ferry is the course I will never forget I played on the afternoon of 9/11.   After spending quite a while in a customers office in Cartersville watching on a little TV he had run home to get.  As you may recall as that day unfolded no one knew what the extent of the attack was going to be, what was going to happen next.  So we both decided that if we were going to die from Anthrax or some kind of biological warfare in the next couple days we just as well go play golf first.

As you mentioned Stonebridge is a pretty good test of golf as I recall.  

Speaking of NW Atlanta golf I played a course a couple weeks ago that was better than what I was expecting.  Bridgemill in Canton.  Wasnt this the Desmond Muirhead course that was toned down over the years?  I was expecting goofiness, but found that it wasnt that much over the top as I expected.

[Mike_Cirba]

Mike,
I'd bet pretty heavily on the 1974 date, at least.  I moved to the area in 1980 and started going up there pretty shortly thereafter, and I think the front nine had already been there awhile, certainly more than a year.  I've seen both Davis and Bingham listed, never Kirby or Player.  Davis did a number of other courses in the NW GA area, both 9 and 18 holes, so that is very easy to believe.  Honestly, I thought the Bingham name was one of the owners; didn't know that he was a GCA at all.

I've liked everything of Davis' that I've seen.  A couple of notable ones are Stonebridge in Rome and Fields Ferry in Calhoun.  Stonebridge hosts a number of GSGA events and is on the "Thrifty 50" list that one of the mags does.  Both courses are just excellent and GREAT values to boot.

This is SO cool!  I cannot believe that I am discussing Royal Oaks (nee Plantation) with a guy from Philly.  Unreal, and ONLY on this website.

A.G.,

Yes, this is very, very cool.

Expect more of it as Jen's mom and step-dad live in Cartersville and her sister near Athens.

We're coming down for Dixie Cup on Friday...staying in C'ville overnite, and then I'm heading down to Madison in the morn, staying around there overnite while she stays with her mom.

Life is good all around.  

[Daryl "Turboe" Boe]

Mike,
I'd bet pretty heavily on the 1974 date, at least.  I moved to the area in 1980 and started going up there pretty shortly thereafter, and I think the front nine had already been there awhile, certainly more than a year.  I've seen both Davis and Bingham listed, never Kirby or Player.  Davis did a number of other courses in the NW GA area, both 9 and 18 holes, so that is very easy to believe.  Honestly, I thought the Bingham name was one of the owners; didn't know that he was a GCA at all.

I've liked everything of Davis' that I've seen.  A couple of notable ones are Stonebridge in Rome and Fields Ferry in Calhoun.  Stonebridge hosts a number of GSGA events and is on the "Thrifty 50" list that one of the mags does.  Both courses are just excellent and GREAT values to boot.

This is SO cool!  I cannot believe that I am discussing Royal Oaks (nee Plantation) with a guy from Philly.  Unreal, and ONLY on this website.

A.G.,

Yes, this is very, very cool.

Expect more of it as Jen's mom and step-dad live in Cartersville and her sister near Athens.

We're coming down for Dixie Cup on Friday...staying in C'ville overnite, and then I'm heading down to Madison in the morn, staying around there overnite while she stays with her mom.

Life is good all around.  

Mike,

Next time a little heads up is in order since I have to go to Cartersville every once in a while to see a customer anyway.  You know where I want to play next time is Cartersville CC, I drive by it every time I go to my customers and have never played it.  It looks like a nice little small town club.  We need to make it a plan.

[Mike_Cirba]

Turboe,

Wholly agreed.

In fact, I need to connect with not only you but the whole damn bunch of you southern hooligans, like Crosby, Crockett, Whitaker, Bert (a carpetbagger), Hutto, Cullum, Young, Williams, et.al...

I've already met Hendren, Young, & Christensen so I know what I'm getting myself into...sort of.  

Mike Young told me good things about Cartersville.  

[A.G._Crockett]

Mike,
I'd bet pretty heavily on the 1974 date, at least.  I moved to the area in 1980 and started going up there pretty shortly thereafter, and I think the front nine had already been there awhile, certainly more than a year.  I've seen both Davis and Bingham listed, never Kirby or Player.  Davis did a number of other courses in the NW GA area, both 9 and 18 holes, so that is very easy to believe.  Honestly, I thought the Bingham name was one of the owners; didn't know that he was a GCA at all.

I've liked everything of Davis' that I've seen.  A couple of notable ones are Stonebridge in Rome and Fields Ferry in Calhoun.  Stonebridge hosts a number of GSGA events and is on the "Thrifty 50" list that one of the mags does.  Both courses are just excellent and GREAT values to boot.

This is SO cool!  I cannot believe that I am discussing Royal Oaks (nee Plantation) with a guy from Philly.  Unreal, and ONLY on this website.

A.G.,

Yes, this is very, very cool.

Expect more of it as Jen's mom and step-dad live in Cartersville and her sister near Athens.

We're coming down for Dixie Cup on Friday...staying in C'ville overnite, and then I'm heading down to Madison in the morn, staying around there overnite while she stays with her mom.

Life is good all around.  

I would love to play sometime when you are here.  By sheer bad timing, I'm heading to NC the weekend of the Dixie Cup for family weekend with my daughter at UNC, so I'll miss it.  But another time, I hope.

[Chris_Clouser]

I posted a thread asking about Jim Fazio a few months ago and got no response, so I'm glad that somebody else started this.  

Fazio has worked on three courses in Indiana and I've seen them all.  

Wildcat Creek only had him work on what is mostly the back nine and a couple of holes on the front.  His holes are the best on the course and the 11th, 12th, 7th, 16th and 17th were all pretty good holes.  The 11th was a little quirky in that it plays only 455 from the tips but as a par 5.  If it was a par four it would possibly be one of the toughest in the state.  The 12th is a very solid hole as well that has perhaps the best green on the course.  The 16th has a great green location.  The 7th and 17th are a couple of excellent shortish par threes that challenge distance control from the tee.

The Brassie in Chesterton is a nice layout, but has nothing special.  It does have some of the best green entrances as a total that I have seen in the state.  They are varied and use the hazards in a variety of ways.  If I had to pick the best holes there I would say the stretch of 7 through 10 would be the best of the bunch with the 13th and 14th also being very good.  A clever use of water on 7 and 10 make those two holes perhaps the best on the course if one only wanted a couple of highlight holes.

The Legends of Indiana is his most high-profile course of the group and deservedly so.  It might not be in the upper echelon of courses in Indiana, but it is quite good.  Perhaps the back end of the top 20 publics.  A really flat piece of land, Fazio put together a course that has some wonderful par fives, par threes and both long and short par fours.  There are a few duds in the mix (the 15th for example), but the course is very solid and has some wonderful holes.  The fourth and fifth in particular are very strong mid to short par fours.

Though I would not say that his courses are mandatory for someone coming through the state, I would not shy away from playing them if someone wished to.  Especially the Legends course in Franklin.    

[Andy Troeger]

Chris,
The Legends is another course we might have to disagree on. I don't see a lot of difference between it and the Brassie and having been on the Legends a fair amount for the high school state championships. I don't blame Jim Fazio, the course was a flat cornfield before,, but if the wind isn't up the course would be eaten alive by better players (the high schoolers have shot a couple 64's there). I just don't think it is particularly interesting too, with the possible exception of #4 and 5. Without remembering every one of them, I would not put it ahead of a single course you've profiled thus far.

I would generally agree with your comments on Wildcat and The Brassie. WC was the only one I would care to go back to personally.

[Willie_Dow]

Mike - Jim had a big hand in the finishing up job left by George at Hawks Nest in Vero Beach, FL.  It is truly a grand layout on the sand hills, with contours you seldom see down there.

[Chris_Clouser]

Andy,

I can see your point on Legends and I agree about where it stands.  It is below almost every course I've profiled.  I think it is above a couple I did early on though (Bent Tree and Golf Club).  But I've been trying to only profile the best courses in the state.  Which is why Kampen did not get a review...

I think the biggest problem with Legends is that the ends of both nines is fairly boring with the exception of the approach on 18.  The middle and start of both loops have some really good holes.  Maybe I'm willing to go back and see if my first impression was right on or if I'm overvaluing it.  Legends struck me as a course that I probably wouldn't like but for some reason I did.  

[Adam Clayman]

Sully, It means that the construction person had to make lots of little decisions. This person was the same person who moved dirt at BDR and is currently working at "Everyones favorite Hometown...The Villages". Maidlow the mutilator.

[Jim Colton]

I was just listening to this golf podcast with an interview with 'legendary' course designer Jim Fazio this morning.  The podcast description says 'We were lucky to get inside the head of a design legend'.

It reminds me of a course in NW Indiana that bills itself solely as a 'Fazio course', hoping that people think it's Tom Fazio.