UNFAIR golf course maintenance, NOT

[ANTHONYPIOPPI]

Garland,

Maybe to even it out you could make the bunkers deeper so your little friends can see over the edges?

Anthony

[Jim_Kennedy]

The USGA says the lower branches of trees should be trimmed off to allow for recovery shots.-Garland Bayley

Garland,
If you don't mind, would you post where you read this?

Does the article say you must trim the branches, or does it only suggest that it be done?

Does the article say that a player of any height is entitled to an unfettered stance or area of intended swing when making a 'recovery' shot from the trees?

I am blaming the advantage my short buddy gets with his poor game on maintenance. -Garland Bayley

If you choke down and widen your stance you too can be 5'5'' but, in the end, you have only yourself to blame for not playing with tall people.



 

[CHrisB]

Garland,

I'm simply pointing out that there are plenty of places where one type of player/person has an advantage over another type of player/person, and to try to prepare the playing field to eliminate such advantages is neither doable nor even desirable.

Do you also think that rough should be cut low so that women, kids and others without the strength of a larger man aren't at an inherent disadvantage?

Do you think that bunkers should be shallow so that everyone, tall or short, be able to see everything out of them?

-----------------------------------------------------------

By the way, I once witnessed a golf course discriminate on the basis of weight.

We were playing a best-ball tournament at Bandon Trails, and one of our opponents was a heavier fellow (250+). On #15 he flared his approach to the right, just above the bunker short-right of the green. He was able to stand on the grass to play his pitch, with his heels hanging out over the bunker, but before he could swing, the whole area he where was standing collapsed into the bunker, and he sort of rode that collapsing chunk of ground down into the sand. His ball, however, remained out of the bunker but now it was right on the edge and he was unable to take a suitable stance to go at the green with his pitch. He exited the sand, walked around the bunker, and quickly tiptoed up to the ball to pitch it sideways before he could enlarge the bunker any further.

[Lloyd_Cole]

Today I played maybe the ugliest shot of the year (so far...). I hit a perfect ( too perfect actually ) 2 hybrid on our opening hole leaving me lob wedge ( I wanted SW ) which I chunked in such a manner that the divot, my biggest in recent memory, was deep and strangely irregularly shaped -  the ball barely touched the grooved area of the clubface, but somehow managed to carry the bunker short left, which shouldn't have been in play - the line of my 75 yard shot being around 40 feet left of my supposed target.. my ball landed on the edge of the bunker, kicked forwards and right off the downslope and finished 8 feet below the hole.
So much for fairness in golf. Of course I was obliged to miss.

[Dan King]

Whenever you are feeling sorry for yourself, remember what Randy Newman says about their weiners.

Dan King

They got little baby legs
And they stand so low
You got to pick 'em up
Just to say hello
They got little cars
That go beep, beep, beep
They got little voices
Goin' peep, peep, peep
They got tiny little weiners
And dirty little minds
They're gonna get you every time
Well, I don't want no Short People
Don't want no Short People
Don't want no Short People
'Round here
 --Randy Newman

[Eric Morrison]

Mike...don't you know that everything is always our fault?!
If you just prune these trees from the bottom, once i.e. basal prune!, everybody's problem goes away.
Just because the USGA says something does not mean it is universal law of GC maintenance.
Hit it in the fairway more, or in my case, learn the punch shot because I tend to miss a lot of fairways!

[Craig Sweet]

This thread is too funny! The early comments about the rough mower roll bars bringing down limbs is spot on.  You also have to watch out for limbs that the roll bar doesn't bring down...they snap back and whack you in the back of the head!

We limbed up all our taller tees this spring...shorter trees were left alone or given a modest prune job....so we have a variety out there....sometimes you just can't limb up a short tree without throwing off its "balance".

Here's amother good reason to limb up a tree...One day my boss grabed me and said come on, we're going to go repair some irrigation...all he had in the club car was a chain saw...a few removed limbs later and a large brown spot was being hit by the sprinkler!  yet another good reason for limbing up a tree!

[TEPaul]

"I find however that at a large number of courses they are trimmed to a level that will not impede the swing of a relatively short golfer, but will impede the swing of a relatively tall golfer. Is this not unfair?"

Everything works out in the wash on a golf course.

So a tall golfer is disadvantaged under some tree limbs but he has an advantage at say Gil Hanse's drop shot 5th hole at Inniscrone because he can see the green from the tee while a short golfer can't without getting his caddie to hoist him onto his shoulders.

At around 6'5" Gil Hanse may be one of the most visually unfair golf architects in history because he constantly forgets to get down on his knees when he designs golf courses. This is an exceedingly serious oversight for which he and his entire career work product should be roundly damned by the entire world of golf.

Shivas:

If a player hit a shot while balancing on his caddy's shoulders under what rule should he be penalized for cheating?

[BCrosby]

As usual, Dan King gets it right.

Complaining about fairness is whining dressed up as a claim about morality.

We are all too old to play dress up.

Bob

[A.G._Crockett]

I find that A high percentage of parkland golf courses are maintained in an unfair manner. The USGA says the lower branches of trees should be trimmed off to allow for recovery shots. I do not know if they specify a height to which they should be trimmed. I find however that at a large number of courses they are trimmed to a level that will not impede the swing of a relatively short golfer, but will impede the swing of a relatively tall golfer. Is this not unfair?

I would agree, and wholeheartedly recommend bowling or bocci to you, where there are far, far fewer height-related maintenance issues cropping up.

[Bruce Katona]

The higher trees are limbed up the better.....easier to recover....better yet, use the chain saw to eliminate them completely.

[Garland Bayley]

Garland,

Maybe to even it out you could make the bunkers deeper so your little friends can see over the edges?

Anthony

[Garland Bayley]

The USGA says the lower branches of trees should be trimmed off to allow for recovery shots.-Garland Bayley

Garland,
If you don't mind, would you post where you read this?

In the report the USGA made to our club after their visit. They made a point of emphasizing making the game fun for all players. Surprised me by how much they seemed to be like what I read in The Spirit of St. Andrews

Does the article say you must trim the branches, or does it only suggest that it be done?

Of course it did not say must.

Does the article say that a player of any height is entitled to an unfettered stance or area of intended swing when making a 'recovery' shot from the trees?

Of course not. It is my embellishment to suggest that the trimming be done equitably for all players.

I am blaming the advantage my short buddy gets with his poor game on maintenance. -Garland Bayley

If you choke down and widen your stance you too can be 5'5'' but, in the end, you have only yourself to blame for not playing with tall people.



 

[Garland Bayley]

By the way, I once witnessed a golf course discriminate on the basis of weight.

We were playing a best-ball tournament at Bandon Trails, and one of our opponents was a heavier fellow (250+). On #15 he flared his approach to the right, just above the bunker short-right of the green. He was able to stand on the grass to play his pitch, with his heels hanging out over the bunker, but before he could swing, the whole area he where was standing collapsed into the bunker, and he sort of rode that collapsing chunk of ground down into the sand. His ball, however, remained out of the bunker but now it was right on the edge and he was unable to take a suitable stance to go at the green with his pitch. He exited the sand, walked around the bunker, and quickly tiptoed up to the ball to pitch it sideways before he could enlarge the bunker any further.

Were back to those 1 in 10000 round incidents again. Sigh!
 

[Garland Bayley]

Whenever you are feeling sorry for yourself, remember what Randy Newman says about their weiners.

Dan King

They got little baby legs
And they stand so low
You got to pick 'em up
Just to say hello
They got little cars
That go beep, beep, beep
They got little voices
Goin' peep, peep, peep
They got tiny little weiners
And dirty little minds
They're gonna get you every time
Well, I don't want no Short People
Don't want no Short People
Don't want no Short People
'Round here
 --Randy Newman

Dan King,

Where have you been? Do I get the honor of having brought you back to the board with my timely and important topic?

[Garland Bayley]

"I find however that at a large number of courses they are trimmed to a level that will not impede the swing of a relatively short golfer, but will impede the swing of a relatively tall golfer. Is this not unfair?"

Everything works out in the wash on a golf course.

So a tall golfer is disadvantaged under some tree limbs but he has an advantage at say Gil Hanse's drop shot 5th hole at Inniscrone because he can see the green from the tee while a short golfer can't without getting his caddie to hoist him onto his shoulders.

At around 6'5" Gil Hanse may be one of the most visually unfair golf architects in history because he constantly forgets to get down on his knees when he designs golf courses. This is an exceedingly serious oversight for which he and his entire career work product should be roundly damned by the entire world of golf.

Shivas:

If a player hit a shot while balancing on his caddy's shoulders under what rule should he be penalized for cheating?

Tom,

Gil and Forrest should partner up. Then we could get equitability from both ends of the stature range.
 

[John Kavanaugh]

By the way, I once witnessed a golf course discriminate on the basis of weight.

We were playing a best-ball tournament at Bandon Trails, and one of our opponents was a heavier fellow (250+). On #15 he flared his approach to the right, just above the bunker short-right of the green. He was able to stand on the grass to play his pitch, with his heels hanging out over the bunker, but before he could swing, the whole area he where was standing collapsed into the bunker, and he sort of rode that collapsing chunk of ground down into the sand. His ball, however, remained out of the bunker but now it was right on the edge and he was unable to take a suitable stance to go at the green with his pitch. He exited the sand, walked around the bunker, and quickly tiptoed up to the ball to pitch it sideways before he could enlarge the bunker any further.

Were back to those 1 in 10000 round incidents again. Sigh!
 

This exact situation forced me to hit a left handed bunker shot at Ballyneal.  As a guest I didn't feel my score was more valuable than the beautifully crafted bunker finger that would have collapsed under my weight.  I will also hit left handed shots as opposed to hitting tree branches that impede my swing.  Please do not promote creating sterile enviornments for your own selfish desires to recover from poor swings.  If fun was fair nobody would ever risk anything to have it.

[Garland Bayley]

As usual, Dan King gets it right.

Complaining about fairness is whining dressed up as a claim about morality.

We are all too old to play dress up.

Bob

Bob,

As you may have noticed I have been on this board for a while and as you may correctly suppose, I have read the discussions on fairness that occur from time to time.

The main gist of the argument is that everyone plays the same course, therefore the game is inherently fair. And, the instances of a course have a feature come into play that would be unfair are so rare as to be of little concern, e.g., bunker edge collapsing under heavy players weight.

The concern I have raised occurs quite often on our parkland courses, and  does not provide the same course for all people (think a bowling alley with a ceiling so low the tall person must stoop more than desired to play).

Now would you care to address the issues raised, or will you continue to be dismissive?  

[Garland Bayley]

I find that A high percentage of parkland golf courses are maintained in an unfair manner. The USGA says the lower branches of trees should be trimmed off to allow for recovery shots. I do not know if they specify a height to which they should be trimmed. I find however that at a large number of courses they are trimmed to a level that will not impede the swing of a relatively short golfer, but will impede the swing of a relatively tall golfer. Is this not unfair?

I would agree, and wholeheartedly recommend bowling or bocci to you, where there are far, far fewer height-related maintenance issues cropping up.

Are you kidding me?? The floor/ground is simply too far away in those sports and I can't grow longer fingers to compensate.

[Garland Bayley]

The higher trees are limbed up the better.....easier to recover....better yet, use the chain saw to eliminate them completely.

Yes! And then the course can be marketed as "links style".  

[Garland Bayley]

By the way, I once witnessed a golf course discriminate on the basis of weight.

We were playing a best-ball tournament at Bandon Trails, and one of our opponents was a heavier fellow (250+). On #15 he flared his approach to the right, just above the bunker short-right of the green. He was able to stand on the grass to play his pitch, with his heels hanging out over the bunker, but before he could swing, the whole area he where was standing collapsed into the bunker, and he sort of rode that collapsing chunk of ground down into the sand. His ball, however, remained out of the bunker but now it was right on the edge and he was unable to take a suitable stance to go at the green with his pitch. He exited the sand, walked around the bunker, and quickly tiptoed up to the ball to pitch it sideways before he could enlarge the bunker any further.

Were back to those 1 in 10000 round incidents again. Sigh!
 

This exact situation forced me to hit a left handed bunker shot at Ballyneal.  As a guest I didn't feel my score was more valuable than the beautifully crafted bunker finger that would have collapsed under my weight.  I will also hit left handed shots as opposed to hitting tree branches that impede my swing.  Please do not promote creating sterile enviornments for your own selfish desires to recover from poor swings.  If fun was fair nobody would ever risk anything to have it.

Abandon all hope. JakaB has joined the fray.

[Ron Farris]

Perhaps on Parkland courses it would be best to let all trees take their natural form!  NO PRUNING WHATSOEVER!  Would that be discrimination?  Mother Nature is seldom wrong and it is useless to fight her.  If the point of this thread is discrimination then I would have to consult an attorney.  If it is golf course maintenance I would consult a golf course superintendent .  I try to encourage people to enjoy the game of golf as much as possible.  Do some nightime pruning and the game may be more enjoyable.

[John Kavanaugh]

Being tall, fat and ignorant this thread was built for me.  Why can't carts have adjustable steering wheels.  Every pair of kahkis I own have black scuff marks across my pockets where the wheel rubs my thighs.

[Ron Farris]

JK,
Dang, that cart issue sounds unfair for your body type.  Good Luck!

[Garland Bayley]

Perhaps on Parkland courses it would be best to let all trees take their natural form!  NO PRUNING WHATSOEVER!  Would that be discrimination?  Mother Nature is seldom wrong and it is useless to fight her.  If the point of this thread is discrimination then I would have to consult an attorney.  If it is golf course maintenance I would consult a golf course superintendent .  I try to encourage people to enjoy the game of golf as much as possible.  Do some nightime pruning and the game may be more enjoyable.

Ron,

You are a bit late. I have already suggested no pruning as an equitable alternative.