[Tommy Williamsen]

While I was out west this year I had the opportunity to play five Jim Engh courses.  The best of the lot was The Club at Black Rock in Coeur D'Alene Idaho.  I expected it to be beautiful.  And it had a few waterfalls which are death on this site.  But it was a joy to play.  It was fun.  The shots off the tee  required length and accuracy.  The shots into the greens were demanding to make birdie but forgiving enough not to over penalize a mediocre shots.  The greens were the most benign of Enghs I havae played, yet they had movement that made you keep vigilant.  I could play it every day and not tire of it.

The par three second.  200 yarder to a narrow long green.


Tee shot on the par five third hole. Huge elevation drop.


Tee shot on 4 from an elevated tee.


The par five 9th hole from the tee.


Tee shot on 11


Second shot on 11.  It is manufactured and contrived but it was great fun.



The par three 14th



The par five 16th hole from the tee.  A double dogleg.  The green is in the distance.


The risk reward second shot on 16.


The par four 18th. Par four up the hill at 400 yards.


The course had it all.  The par threes were the strength, the par fives offered risk reward and the par fours challenging.  And it was a beautiful setting in which to play.

[Matt_Cohn]

Tommy,

Thanks for the thoughts. I remember this course being discussed a few months ago on here.

I wonder if at any point in the round it felt like "too much" - as in, "Why all the contrived stuff in such a naturally beautiful setting?".

Could you expand on how the manufactured look works or doesn't work with a site that most of us would have said just screams out for a natural, minimalist kind of course?

[Tommy Williamsen]

I knew that the 11th green would not draw rave reviews here, to say the least.  When I first saw it I thought, "Oh brother."  Then I hit the shot, through the little slot and said to my self, "Self, that was fun."  To be honest I almost didn't post the 11th green but thought "Oh go ahead."

I do think that Engh has a few template holes.  He seems to like double dogleg par fives and all his bunkers look alike.  There are some template greens as well.

I must have missed the discussion from before.

[Tom_Doak]

Matt:

I don't know if you were being facetious or not in your last sentence, but the land at Black Rock did not cry out for a minimalist-style course.  In fact I passed on making a bid for their second 18 because the land is so steep that most of the fairways would HAVE to be re-graded.  There are some serious elevation changes on most of the holes.

I didn't enjoy it as much as Tommy did, but then, it's not exactly my style of golf course.

[Brad Swanson]

I knew that the 11th green would not draw rave reviews here, to say the least.  When I first saw it I thought, "Oh brother."  Then I hit the shot, through the little slot and said to my self, "Self, that was fun."  To be honest I almost didn't post the 11th green but thought "Oh go ahead."

I do think that Engh has a few template holes.  He seems to like double dogleg par fives and all his bunkers look alike.  There are some template greens as well.

I must have missed the discussion from before.

Tommy,  
   Sorry to pull the old switcheroo on ya, but I moved my reply regarding Engh template holes to its own topic to avoid threadjacking your post on Black Rock.

Cheers,
Brad

[Tommy Williamsen]

Brad, thanks, I thought I had lost my mind again and answerred a question not asked.

[Brad Swanson]

I must also say that this site looks somewhat similar to the Greywalls site.  I have wondered if Jim was on the short list of architects under consideration for Greywalls due to his experience with difficult sites.  I will also say that I think Mike got everything he possibly could out of the difficult site he was given to build Greywalls.

Cheers,
Brad

[Kalen Braley]

Tommy,

Thanks for posting the pics, nice job.  From having played a couple of Enghs courses as well, he does use templates alot for his greens.  While they are alot of fun to putt, they do get repetitive after awhile.

From having lived in the Spokane area for roughly 6 years, I can tell you those types of rock outcroppings are all over the place up there.  Yes he did apparently remove all the dirt to create space for the green, but they do exist there "naturally". And to boot it does like like a thrilling shot.  

[Jay Cox]

Yet another one of those magic places where every tee shot goes down hill.

Except 18.  I sort of like 18.

What's the strategy on 16?  Can one try to fly it to the second landing area on the tee shot, or is the only play to hit three zig-zagging shots well away from trouble while trying to dodge the intervening telephone poles, er, trees?

What about 11?  That fairway seems huge; is there a reason to hit to one side or the other?

[Tim Pitner]

Brad, I don't think I've seen this hole before.  (It might be fun . . . in a scramble . . . after a few drinks).    

Despite living in the land of Engh, the only course of his that I've played (still) is Red Hawk Ridge.  Even with that paltry experience, I can say that many of these holes look familiar to me.  

[Matt_Cohn]

Tom,

I wasn't being facetious, but I do think I misspoke.

I didn't realize the land was quite that severe. By minimalist, I meant that it's so beautiful that it doesn't seem like the sort of property where you'd need to add fake rocks and waterfalls and mounding and that sort of thing.

I suppose I'm thinking of a minimalist, natural *look*, although it sounds like it would take a lot of earthmoving to create it.

[Adam Clayman]

Thanx for posting these pictures. There's some great shots.

The 11th looks like it belongs in the worlds most exotic spots. Malaysia... Tahitti.... Some place where King Kong might've batted around a pill or two.

The picture of the 14th is wolrd class.

This pictorial has me pondering if Jim has surpassed The Faz in this style of visual art.

[Jesse Jones]

Tommy,

I liked BR.
However, I just felt it was a really nice members course.
Some reachable par 5's, 5 par 3's and a nice set of manageable par 4's.
If you ever get back there again, try putting from 75 yards out on 10.
Interesting shaping there.
Tommy, what are your thoughts on the routing of the second 9?
In particular, the back to back par 3's and the number of downhill tee shots.

[Brett Hochstein]

The par three 14th

I saw this hole in other threads used somewhat jokingly.  I can't believe it's real--thought it was photoshopped.  Looks like something from "GoldenTee," the sports bar arcade game.  

[Tommy Williamsen]

Tommy,

I liked BR.
However, I just felt it was a really nice members course.
Some reachable par 5's, 5 par 3's and a nice set of manageable par 4's.
If you ever get back there again, try putting from 75 yards out on 10.
Interesting shaping there.
Tommy, what are your thoughts on the routing of the second 9?
In particular, the back to back par 3's and the number of downhill tee shots.

I really like the routing.  As I recall no two holes, except maybe 13 and 14 go in the same direction.  One thing I have noticed about his designs is that, like Nicklaus, he likes downhill tee shots.  So do most players.  Too many, however, are too many.  My biggest problem with the routing is that the course is really not walkable.  Every hole is a signature hole.  That said they are good holes.
As for the back to back par threes, I don't know what else he could have done.  14 is a great hole.  I played the hole from each of the tees.  They not only were different lengths they had different angles.

[Tommy Williamsen]

Yet another one of those magic places where every tee shot goes down hill.

Except 18.  I sort of like 18.

What's the strategy on 16?  Can one try to fly it to the second landing area on the tee shot, or is the only play to hit three zig-zagging shots well away from trouble while trying to dodge the intervening telephone poles, er, trees?

What about 11?  That fairway seems huge; is there a reason to hit to one side or the other?

Two of the guys in front of me hoisted their second shots over the trees and hit the green in two.  I tried to hook my second shot around the trees and watched the ball make a pretty splash.  The lay-up is a trick.  It looks easy but in reality is a scary shot depending on where you want to hit it.

[Jesse Jones]

Yet another one of those magic places where every tee shot goes down hill.

Except 18.  I sort of like 18.

What's the strategy on 16?  Can one try to fly it to the second landing area on the tee shot, or is the only play to hit three zig-zagging shots well away from trouble while trying to dodge the intervening telephone poles, er, trees?

What about 11?  That fairway seems huge; is there a reason to hit to one side or the other?

Jay,

Here's my 16th..
1-Snap hook left.
2-Fat and just short of the water..
3-over the water right of the green..
4-chip
5-one putt par..

UGLY..

The real strategy.. It's 529 yds..585 tips..
It's a cut off the tee..Be careful it's 270-330yds downhill to the junk.
The second shot is either a draw to the green..or a 7 or 8 iron lay-up to the LZ right of the green about 75 yds out.
 
 

[Jonathan Cummings]

When folks have seen both BR and Gozzer (across the lake) I'd really like to hear how they contrast the two.  JC

[Jerry Kluger]

I really wonder whether repetitive is really so bad if its from course to course as opposed to hole to hole.  What I mean is that when an architect finds a design or feature that works well and is well received by members, what's wrong with using it again at another course for another set of members?  Tommy played five Engh courses on an extended trip involving quite a bit of traveling but that surely is not what Engh had in mind when he was designing the course.  He's looking for designs and features that will work on the site - many of which are very challenging.  He then uses the experience he's had at other courses to determine what the membership or visitors will find enjoyable and interesting.  He cannot be concerned that it might be similar to something he did a thousand miles away and therefor not use it on the current site.  Now if he was hired to build two courses at one location and they both had similar designs or features then that could be a problem.  

[Garland Bayley]

This shot shows the unnatural nature of #11 more than yours does.



The other threads can be found here.

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forums2/index.php?board=1;action=display;threadid=28662;start=msg552081#msg552081

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forums2/index.php?board=1;action=display;threadid=28662;start=msg552085#msg552085

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forums2/index.php?board=1;action=display;threadid=28662;start=msg552089#msg552089

[Garland Bayley]

I guess I don't get it Tommy. You say it is more than a pretty face and then all the pictures you put up are of a pretty face and leave out all the plain Jane variety.

Your main premise seems to be playing Black Rock is fun. I've got news for you. I doubt you will find many here who don't think playing golf is fun.  

I must admit, you do take some nice pictures.

[Tommy Williamsen]

I guess I don't get it Tommy. You say it is more than a pretty face and then all the pictures you put up are of a pretty face and leave out all the plain Jane variety.

Your main premise seems to be playing Black Rock is fun. I've got news for you. I doubt you will find many here who don't think playing golf is fun.  

I must admit, you do take some nice pictures.

Garland, there really were not too many plain Jane looking holes.
The course, though is more than fun.  It was good.  As I mentioned earlier, the tee shots required both distance and   accuracy.  The fairways are generous enough but to score well it is important to hit it in the right spots.  The par fives had good risk reward options, the par threes may be the strength of the course.  They vary in length, direction, and elevation change.  The par fours are good, not great but the green sites are very good.  I like the bunkering, chipping areas and the slope and undulation of the greens cause the player to be vigilant to score well.  It doesn't beat up the average player and the low handicapper can put up a good score.  It is not the most difficult of courses.  I am a five and shot 77 and played very well, for me. A pro could score very well.  The reason I started this thread was not so much to sing its praises but to show that pretty is not necessarily bad.  The beauty of a course certainly does not make it good but it also doesn't make it bad.

And you sure are right that most of us on this site think golf is fun.  I just love hitting a golf ball and see where it ends up and how it got there.

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