Cottonwood Hills, Kansas

[TEPaul]

I just played a brand new Faldo course around Hutchinson Kansas called Cottonwood Hills that seems to be a lead-in for a residential development.

In my opinion, the course is basically strategy on ultra steriods. By that I mean there is constant use of undulating topography, all kinds of uses of visual deception through blindness, selective width and narrowness, and constant danger of lost balls if off fairways and such.

If the wind blows on this course (as it did in our three days out there) this could be one of the hardest courses I've ever seen to score on.

A few of the greens are utra strategic vis-a-vis approaching, recovering and putting due to topography and radical internal contours.

The course rating from the tips is 76.4 to a 71 par and a slope of 150.

This is definitely a course one would have to play a couple of times to have any idea what to even try to do.

There are all kinds of ways to design a course to create strategy and this one appears to attempt to use every single available technique imaginable.

To say it's excessive that way is an understatement, particularly for a daily fee public golf course.

The price for play and cart is $37.

Perhaps us "strategy" proponents in golf architect should be careful what we wish for lest architects throw the entire kitchen and sink at us that way as Faldo & Co did at Cottonwood Hills.

It was said out there that Nick thinks this course could hold a US Open.

If it did the US Open better reduce the field by about half and enlist about 300 Rules Officials and spotters.  

Intuitively, I've been a fan of Nick Faldo's philosophy on golf architecture but if he ever wants to compete with Prairie Dunes's Perry Maxwell as an architect he better learn to tone down his architecture in a strategic sense by about a factor of ten.  

On the other hand, if anyone really wants to see what strategic golf is all about as an ultra test in the currency of conserving strokes go play Cottonwood Hills, Kansas.

By the way, I'd never been to Prairie Dunes GC before. In my opinion, that golf course just might be the ultimate classroom in sophisticated strategic golf course architecture.

[RJ_Daley]

If it did the US Open better reduce the field by about half and enlist about 300 Rules Officials and spotters.

It looks like a lost ball factory.  Here is a photo gallery that seems to reinforce that thought Tom:
http://www.cottonwoodhills.net/photogallery-golfcourse.html

Have I ever said how much I dislike these sort of masonry walls on a golf course?  

[Mark Bourgeois]

By the way, I'd never been to Prairie Dunes GC before. In my opinion, that golf course just might be the ultimate classroom in sophisticated strategic golf course architecture.

I daydream about that course more than any other in the world. Let's hear it, better out than in...

[TEPaul]

RJ:

Actually, the hole in that photo was probably one of the more "normal" holes architecturally, and it isn't that representative of Cottonwood Hills.

If Cottonwood Hills is reading this thread, by the way, they need to reset the yellow hazard stakes next to that wall. What they need to do is just remove them and make the water hazard go to the wall. I was with two USGA guys and when one plays with those guys one does not screw around with the Rules of Golf.  

Well, I say that with some latitude actually. One of them said he was instituting one of the USGA/R&A's "unpublished" Decisions (Rule 27-1/127(iii)(v8) which is when you find a ball in the junk that is not your own you may claim it as your "ball in play" and play it so you don't run the risk of running out of golf balls during the round. But this can only be done if there is "reasonable evidence" that the ball which was not originally your "ball in play" is in the immediate vicinity of where your "ball in play" was likely to be.

[Matt_Ward]

Tom Paul:

You traveled to Kansas and left the Phillie area behind. Say it ain't so partner !

Why is it that CNN didn't report this ground breaking news story.

Enjoyed the review and hope to play there someday.

Just a quick question -- does the course play fair from the different tee boxes -- forced carries, etc, etc ?

Thanks ...

[TEPaul]

MarkB:

I'd be glad to tell you in detail in the next day or so why I said that about Prairie Dunes.

[TEPaul]

"Just a quick question -- does the course play fair from the different tee boxes -- forced carries, etc, etc ?"

Matt:

I'm not sure what you mean by 'fair'.

But put it this way---Prairie Dunes is not a long course even if the wind can make some holes play really difficult in a GIR sense. Maxwell (the Maxwells), in my opinion, are about as sophisticated as I've ever seen anywhere with the various uses of offset angles of all kinds using all kinds of physical feature techniques.

When one does that like PD there is almost always a way to get around even if it's sometimes not that visible or obvious if one only truly realizes his strengths and weaknesses (certainly given various wind conditions) which includes observation and concentration.  

I'm not kidding when I say this about Prairie Dunes. To me it really is an ultimate classroom in sophisiticated architectural application. And that includes even some of my all time favorites such as Merion, Pine Valley, NGLA, RCD or even Cypress Point.

I've always been a fan of Perry Maxwell but I've only known some of the redesign work he did or work with another architect such as Mackenzie at Crystal Downs. I'd never seen a course by Maxwell solo (obviously Press did nine at PD).

So I expected a lot from Prairie Dunes and it exceeded my expectation this way by about a factor of three.

The only problem I can see on that course for some is if you cannot keep the ball in the fairways, bunkers or rather wide first cut rough you probably won't find it.

[Mark Bourgeois]

are about as sophisticated as I've ever seen anywhere with the various uses of offset angles of all kinds using all kinds of physical feature techniques.

Bingo

The only problem I can see on that course for some is if you cannot keep the ball in the fairways, bunkers or rather wide first cut rough you probably won't find it.

Did you notice the way people search?  There are paths beaten down in the "gunsch," so that's where you look -- not necessarily where the ball went.

Look forward to your comments...

[Sean Leary]

Tom, I am curious as to how firm the greens were at PD.  With the extreme heat in the summer, the greens can get watered to the point of playing quite soft.

The gunsch is always the "but" when it come to Prairie Dunes.  Just played Royal Portrush and it is quite similar in that respect.

[TEPaul]

Sean:

Approach shots were making indentations down to the dirt and you could spin it back but otherwise the greens were really good---nice speed of around 10 1/2 or so and smooth. You could definitely run the ball through the approaches too with the right kind of trajectory.

I guess for PD the greens were pretty receptive though because we played in some pretty good wind and a few times I hit what I call a "European" shot (real low trajectory) and could check it and stop it right near the pitch mark.

[Mike_Cirba]

Tom,

Great to see you made it to Prairie Dunes.   Isn't it a hoot!??  

As far as a strategy classroom, I've felt that way a few times in my life...Merion...Riviera...Prairie Dunes jump to the top of the list.   I'm sure there are others but the fact that these courses do it under 7000 yards (I think Riv may be over that by now with the new Faz tees ,but they don't count because I wouldn't play them on principle ) is pretty indicative of how special they are.

[RJ_Daley]

Luckily, GCA.com has a great write-up on Prairie Dunes with many photos.  I had not looked at it in a while.  I have never played it, so I'm going by the pictures.  

Now that I have reviewed the Prairie Dunes pictures, I'd have to say that Faldo did a far better job that my first impression, looking only at CottonwoodHills in isolation.  Once I compared them to the looks at PD, well it is much closer in appearances than I had remembered PD to be.  I didn't remember or have the sense of mind that PD had such difficult rough, so close to the corridors of play (at least as the photos suggest).

Now, they both look like lost ball factories to me.  
I still don't like masonry walls within greens surrounds an bunker walls.  

[RJ_Daley]

I'd love to know how much of this is lay of the land, and how much is shaped out?




It looks pretty damn good on the contour side of fun.  that first picture brings to mind, the 7th at BallyNeal.

[TEPaul]

"It looks pretty damn good on the contour side of fun."

RJ:

Some of the holes certainly are that. Some of the fairway contours are amazing and a couple of green contours are even more amazing. Frankly at least 3-4 holes I doubt I've ever seen anything remotely like in my life. The ball can really cast around on some of those things and part of the problem is some of them aren't visible at all. For instance, we had no idea one alternate fairway was even there. Another par 5 on the back nine was really radical but the point is there were some truly diverse options that I suppose work with some luck and experience.

On some holes you can't even possibly tell if you should consider a provisional or not.

You ought to see the 18th green. That one I have definitely never seen anything remotely like and the fact is it's at the end of a 511 yd par 4. I wish I could've spent some time on it to see if the ball could possible transition from one level or roll to the others. And the short 11th hole green? I think you could hurt yourself trying to walk down the back of it.

This golf course has some holes that completely maxes out the idea of visual deception which is frankly OK with me.

It's going to obviously upset some golfers but that kind of thing would just make me want to come back and try it a bunch more times.

However, maybe up to half the holes are definitely some of the most dangerous you'll ever see, even for the good player.

[Doug Bolls]

TE Paul - I played Cottonwood Valley today - and have been thinking about the experience.  Very penal with forced carries off 17 of 18 holes.  Standing on the tee, it's hard to know what the line is - hit it down the middle on #16 and you're in 18" gunch.  I had absolutely no idea where to hit the ball on the par 5 #15 - it's just so blind all the way.  
I thought #7 par 3 was the kind of hole I saw at PD.
I found it very tough and very penal - even for good shots.  If Marriott is going to make this into a "resort" kind of environment, I think they will have to come back in and make it much more player friendly.
Doug

[Ken Moum]

TE Paul - I played Cottonwood Valley today - and have been thinking about the experience.  Very penal with forced carries off 17 of 18 holes.  Standing on the tee, it's hard to know what the line is - hit it down the middle on #16 and you're in 18" gunch.  I had absolutely no idea where to hit the ball on the par 5 #15 - it's just so blind all the way.  
I thought #7 par 3 was the kind of hole I saw at PD.
I found it very tough and very penal - even for good shots.  If Marriott is going to make this into a "resort" kind of environment, I think they will have to come back in and make it much more player friendly.
Doug

Doug, after that experience, and Colbert Hills today, you'll find Sunday's round a nice bit of relief. No water, no forced carries.

BTW -- We have a 1:08 tee time, the last one before our Parent Junior event.

Ken

[TEPaul]

"If Marriott is going to make this into a "resort" kind of environment, I think they will have to come back in and make it much more player friendly."

Doug Bolls:

I hear you but I hope that doesn't happen. I know it's excessive to expect but if I were Marriott or whoever the developer is, I'd recommend they get Faldo to come back in and do another really "player friendly" course at Cottonwood Hills and then just advertize the current one as one of the most difficult courses in the world to score on. That way they may be able to create something of a "Pine Valley" aura where even hackers may actually enjoy playing it as a torture chamber just to see what that type of thing is all about.  

Obviously Cottonwood Hills is tough to play but it's got to be far easier after the first time when you have almost no idea what you're supposed to do or where you're supposed to go.

[Mike_Cirba]

I think you guys missed this but Tom Paul played a public course.

Some talk about Barry Bonds breaking Hank Aaron's homerun record, but how did this landmark event get missed by the world press??  

Next we have to get him to Lederach.   Who wants to help me kidnap him?

[Jeff_Brauer]

Doug,

I hope you enjoy Colbert Hills today.  The comments on forced carries reminds me of the design of that course.  However, if you play anything but the back tees, I think you will find both the forced carry over Konza prairie to be minimal, and the play corridors at CH much better than at Cottonwood Hills.

Because they wanted to be an Audubon course, the tournament tees do have forced carries from different angles in many cases.  Jim Cobert originally wanted them to be well over 200 yards but we walked the property in a north wind one day and he hit some test shots where he couldn't reach the fw!  Recalling the same thing happening at TPC Jacksonville to his fellow tour pros, we pulled the forced carries way back.

I also think Cottonwood Hills will have a few "resort playability" issues because its both narrow and long forced carries.  And, if you look at the land plan, future houses encroach far too much to keep that links feel if the development is successful.  I also wonder if it can be marketed as a public Prairie Dunes with surrounding housing.  Most of the comments I hear (and kind of agree with based on my site tour) are that the course is too formal/pristine for its rugged site, including those formal stone walls shown above.

An interesting side note to both this course and PD (as well as my new course 20 miles east in Newton) - the water table is about three feet below the surface, which really complicated construction.

[David Kelly]

Most of the comments I hear (and kind of agree with based on my site tour) are that the course is too formal/pristine for its rugged site, including those formal stone walls shown above.

I was really disappointed in Cottonwood Hills. Everyone is correct that it is just too penal and especially difficult for someone who hasn't been there before.  The forced carries and blind shots seemed to have been built without consideration for the prevailing winds which can be quite heavy.  Unlike PD, Cottonwood has a lot of holes that will have the prevailing wind as a sidewind.

I am another person that doesn't like the formal look that Faldo gave to the course.  The flattish cloverleaf bunkers look particularly out of place.

But the most disappointing aspect of the course by far is the fact that this is probably it for that area.  I really doubt if the town can support another golf course.  The topography of the land between PD and Cottonwood Hills was so great for building a golf course that it is a shame that this is what they came up with.

[brad_miller]

David, you certainly saw what I did on my 18 hole chart tour. I have just about zero interest in ever playing this one. I don't even think the NEXT owner will make a go on this site given the course was supposed to be $5-6mm of improvement on less than $1000 an acre land to make the housing work. Blind lakes, unatural bunkering, difficult carries and views from tees and I love those rock walls!!

[TEPaul]

It's odd how or why you associate things but something Bob Crosby said this morning about the Athens CC in Ga discussing transitioning a mundane 400 yarder into a much more strategically challenging 300 yarder got me thinking about Faldo's new Cottonwood Hills course in Kansas.

A few of us played it once last month and we came away thinking it was way too hard and not fun particularlly for a public course.

What was hard about it was it was so unobvious what to do on most of the holes.

On one hole two of our group puilled their tee shots about 75 yards left of their target into what they assumed to be the Kansas ball eating gunch and played provisionals to their original target. When they got out there we were all amazed to find their 75 yard pulls were actually in the middle of a blind alternate fairway from which they had a much better shot to the green.

Instinctively I didn't really like this course because we all made so many mistakes hitting what looked like good shots that turned out bad.

But you know what? On reflection this Cottonwood Hills course intrigues me because it has to be strategically challenging because of these factors of real unobviousness.

After about a month and on reflection because of what Bob Crosby said today about another course I would love to try that Cottonwood course a bunch more times just to see what experience would produce.

Cottonwood Hills probably is too hard for some but to me I look at it as a real strategic challenge. And I would think with that would come a pretty good fun factor.

Interesting how one's perception of a golf course changes and why. If something about a golf course begins to beckon you back to give it another shot because you just didn't understand how to play it well enough the first time around then something good must be going on with its architecture.

Think about NGLA, for instance. If anyone showed up there without knowing anything about the course and played it without any guidance I can see a number of holes out there they may not be able to figure out at first blush.

[Craig Van Egmond]

I was recently in Hutch and the buzz there on Cottonwood Hills is mostly negative, with most people saying its too hard and bring lots of balls.  Most people believe that it will have to be softened to get much repeat play. It will be interesting to see how it goes as PD will be closed after this weekend for some work, so business may improve at Cottonwood for the short run.

With all the negative reviews that Cottonwood received, my fellow GCA'er and I decided to head over to Newton and play Jeff Brauer's new course Sand Creek Station. It turned out to be an excellent choice and a bargain. The course was a blast to play, with some very cool short par 4's, a nice short par 5, a brutally long par 5 and some nice par 3's. The cost was $34 on the weekend, that includes range balls and cart, and we finished play in under 4 hours. Not too shabby for a public course on a busy Saturday afternoon. I would highly recommend the course.  Its nice to see some good affordable golf being done out there.