[Rich Goodale]

Jeff:

In The Evangelist of Golf, George Bahto says 17 at National is a Leven Hole built on a concept from a course no longer in existence. The strategy called for a possible carry of the hazard that is not possible on any of the Raynor Principal's Nose bunkers that I know of.

By the way, you were a little sporadic before the hard drive crashed.

Anthony

Anthony

Nobody (including George B) has yet refuted my (and Tommy Naccarato's) belief that Macdonald's template "Leven" in fact still exists, as the 16th at Lundin Golf Club (originally the 7th on the combined Lundin/Leven Course).

Et. Al.

As for the PN concept, my opinion is that the shape is fortuitous vis a vis the name, but also relevant in that the "nostrils" hide the "nose" from view.  Diving over the nostrils and into the nose is a cruel fate, to which I can personally attest.  In general, it is also a very good example of a centerline bunker which appears to be on the left side of the "fairway."  Line of charm and all that....

The famous Nicklaus quote that "only amateurs play to the right of the PN" is also true, and verified by me when I saw George Zahringer take that route at the Dunhill in 2005.

Rich

[ANTHONYPIOPPI]

Rich,

Interesting theory that the Leven is at Lundin. I trust YOUR opinion, which I cannot say the same about Mr. Naccarato! Not after all the advice he has given me the least of which was, "Buy Enron!"

So let me see if you will answer this question since no one else has: In light of the original strategy, size and shape of The Old Course Principal's Nose, what do you think of the modern versions depicted on this thread?

Anthony

[Rich Goodale]

Anthony

Tommy is usually wrong, but he is so loveable we like to humor him....

There used to be just one course at Leven, stetching out from Leven to where the Lundin clubhouse now is and then returning back--all between the railway line and the sea.  Sometime in the early part of the last century, due to increased demands for play, they split it in two, building inward holes at both the western (Leven) and eastern (Lundin) sides of the property.  The in-course out of bounds at both courses delineates where the old railway line used to be.

I have been told that the 17th at NGLA (The "Leven" hole) was originally designed as a driveable par-4 from a tee far forward and to the left of what is there today.  If you can imagine that angle, it is an pretty damned near exact copy of the current 16th/ex-7th at Lundin/Lundin-Leven.  Capice?

I rest my case.

Rich

PS--Oh yeah, the modern versions pictured on this thread suck.

R

[TEPaul]

Richard the Dyslexic:

The original old tee at the 17th at NGLA was also forward and to the RIGHT of where it is today. And that would certainly explain all that fairway to the right divided from the fairway to the left by a series of mid-fairway bunkering, if you get my drift. I have never seen a competent player try to drive the ball way right and across that bunkering from the present men's tees on the left. On the other hand I've never tried to play the hole from the right because those are ladies tees today with no capacity to go back.

Furthermore, Macdonald did not always try to make some of his features borrowed from abroad strategically play precisely the way they did abroad. Macdonald was intelligent enough to mix them up into other conceptual and strategic iterations.

Those who have always said about NGLA or other Euro prototype holes that Macdonald used; "Oh, it isn't an exact enough copy of the hole abroad" are totally out to lunch. Even if this kind of thing is pointed out to them over and over again, for some reason they seem to remain out to lunch.  

[TEPaul]

"I trust YOUR opinion, which I cannot say the same about Mr. Naccarato! Not after all the advice he has given me the least of which was, "Buy Enron!"


Anthony, there was nothing wrong with buying Enron. It was just that like some things in life you needed to have some pretty good timing. And if you had really good timing you could've made a killing "short selling" too.  

Wasn't it Roosevelt who made Joe Kennedy the head of the NY Stock Exchange or the SEC saying he needed a fox in the chicken coop? Kennedy, the head of the SEC then proceeded to make a killing short selling. Interesting example from the head of the SEC, huh?  

[Rich Goodale]

Tom

The essence of the 16th at Lundin is that you can either put on a skirt and lay up right or bomb it over the rough ground to the left (feeding into the left to right slope of the land to the green), achieving either death or glory or a combination of the two.

I am sure somebody (George B?) wrote here that the old tee was to the left of the fairway, but I will defer to your greater knowledge, unless you are proven wrong, which is not impossible.  Even if you are right, however, CB was wrong in putting the tee to the right.  What a big girl's blouse he must have been!

Reeshaaar(d)

[ANTHONYPIOPPI]

TEPaul:

Original tee positions are one of the aspects of golf course history that seems to be often overlooked. Too often there is an assumption that what is always was. Thanks for pointing out the tee placement for National Golf Links of America's 17th hole. In fact, often times original green placements are forgotten as well.  I think it was a review of Ekwanok on this site that failed to mention the relocation of a green and how that affected and forced the subsequent relocation of another green.

Anthony

[TEPaul]

Richard:

There may've originally been a tee over on the left of NGLA's 17th but when one looks at that hole it doesn't make a lot of sense vis-a-vis a tee shot from there over to the right half of the fairway (which on an arc encompassed about 125 yards in width).

Macdonald also moved the green back on that hole from where it originally was.

As far as Leven or Lundin or whatever it was over there somewhere----may it rest in peace. It's obviously not important anymore. This gets into the realm of Moriarty claiming Macdonald designed Merion because of that old Alps hole that crossed the road. That too is long gone and forgotten and may it too rest in peaceful worms, precisely where Wilson and Flynn wanted it.  

[TEPaul]

Actually, I amend that. If one can trust E.J. Raisz's old drawing of NGLA that hole was 360 back then from the left and one "lined" strategy was to play right and short of the mid-fairway bunkering to avoid the diagonal crossbunker on the left and then play left over to the fairway to the left of the green and then on in three.

This only goes to prove how much, back in that day, GIR was NOT a locked-in strategic concept like it seems to be today.  

[Ron Farris]

I remember Pete Dye doing a site visit to Austin Country Club years ago.  While coming up to the 5th green he said the bunker complex at the right of the green looked like the Principal's Nose in Scotland.  I was never so proud as I was instramental in building those particular bunkers.  I was a snot-nosed kid just out of turf school.  I had no idea what or where the Principal's Nose was so I did some research in a book my then girl friend, now wife, gave me when she returned from a girl trip to Scotland.  I let Rod Whitman borrow the book while at Austin.  I didn't care that the ACC principal nose was near the green.  I was just happy that Pete had made positive reference to something that I did on the course.  Most other references were " dumb ass".  

[ANTHONYPIOPPI]

TE,

If there is no par there can be no green in regulation. Can we go back to that concept, please?


Anthony

By the way, I emailed you with a quick question not having to do with this thread.

[Rich Goodale]

As far as Leven or Lundin or whatever it was over there somewhere----may it rest in peace. It's obviously not important anymore.

Tom

That course (including that hole) is an Open Qualifier when the big event is on the Old Course in St, Andrews, and also annually hosts the East of Scotland Championship which is a seriously competitive amateur event.

It does not rest in peace, it growls in its continuing relevance to the game of golf.  I can't remember--in your limited visits to Scotland, have you ever visited or played there?  If so why do you think what you think?  If not, why do you even bother to express an opinion?

Slainte

Rich

[Darren_Kilfara]

In my opinion, the original Principal's Nose complex has two key attributes:

1) Imposing appearance. Furthermore, they play as tough as they look: the bunkers are deep, the lips are high, and getting out of them in the right direction isn't always guaranteed.

2) Strategic relevance. They dictate a serious choice whereby you can't ignore them in picking your club and your line off the tee. (Technology hasn't completely neutered them, either; they can be driven easily enough nowadays by the big hitter in most wind conditions, but with OB right and rough and a poor approach angle left, length alone isn't enough.)

For my money, you can't just put any old bunker in the middle of a fairway and call it a Principal's Nose complex - it has to fit both of these descriptions to apply. It's a bit like calling any pair of flanking bunkers "Spectacles": it doesn't work unless they tick all the right boxes. (I guess you can have a template hole that works without having all the qualities of a Redan, for example...but that's an entire hole, not a singular feature on a hole.)

Cheers,
Darren

[ANTHONYPIOPPI]

Darren,

I find your theory interesting. Would a true Principal's Nose then have to have three bunkers? Could 2 or 4 work? If the architect does not call it a Principal's Nose, is it still one? I'm thinking of Ross at Mt. Washington.

What do you call Ralph Barton's Principal's Nose behind the green at Minnesota Valley, I mean other than "odd?"

Anthony

[Darren_Kilfara]

Anthony,

My answers to your questions:

--Would it have to be three? This is open to debate, but in my opinion, I'd say no, not necessarily - two or four (or more; one probably wouldn't work) suitably penal and suitably strategic bunkers would do the trick.

--It doesn't matter what the architect does or doesn't call the feature: if it functions as the Old Course's version of the Principal's Nose does, and one could reasonably demonstrate why in an intelligent conversation about it, then there's no reason not to call it a PN complex. (One can identify a Cape hole without it being called one, right?)

--I don't know Minnesota Valley at all, but I can't imagine any bunker complex behind a green being considered a PN. That's not at all how the feature works.

Ultimately, I'm guessing there are very few true PN complexes in golf, by my definition. None of the bunkers pictured in this thread would seem to fit the PN type to me: the first bunkers are to the left of the fairway and therefore not strategic; the second (at Yale), apart from their utter wimpishness in this incarnation as pictured , shouldn't really come into play at all and are not strategic; even the bunkers at Chicago, a course with which I'm admittedly not familiar, wouldn't seem to fit the definition of a PN, as they again would seem to fail the strategy test. And frankly, I'm fine with there being few PN sets of bunkers - just because an ancient, revered and utterly great design feature isn't copied ad nauseum doesn't mean it's any less great for that.

Cheers,
Darren

[BCrosby]

Darren nails it.

PN's are a subset of centerline bunkers.

A very small subset.

Bob

[Jeff Loh]

anthony
very sporadic......what a pain in the arse!
always back up
didn't realize what a slave to technology i was

[ANTHONYPIOPPI]

Jeff,

Are you all set now? Everything OK?

Anthony

[George_Bahto]

Rich Goodale: ..... when we visited Leven/Lundin recently we spent a lot of time looking over the original Leven hole, now 16-Lundin.

It is still very cool and certainly alive and well.

George

[Jeff Loh]

anthony
new hard drive will take a few days to install. bogarting off friends, wife, etc   thanks for asking

George B
hope things are well. what's next after sleepy? old mac?
lets go rangers!! played Lundin in 05 but dont remember the hole. can you perhaps jar my memory? i see on the scorecard its called "trows" and is 311 from the medal tees......

[George_Bahto]

"lets go rangers!! " ....... sure - well let's see:

they've won 1 stanley cup since 1940 (oh, and i really miss that "1940-chant" Jeff) and last yr was the first time in 8 yrs they even made the playoffs (even after buying various Devils players) ..... you'd better change teams

16 Lundin has two sets of mounds/hills or perhaps even called "hillocks" before the green on the left side of the f'way well short of the green

[corey miller]

Here is the new PN bunker that George Bahto and Gil Hanse put on our par 5 #6 hole at SHCC.  Photo is not indicitive of the extensive tree work on the course.  This would be the only remaining green complex with any junk behind it.  Some will hopefully  go over the winter.


 

[TEPaul]

Corey:

I can't remember the holes of SHCC very well anymore but do you think there's a good reason NOT to bulge that fairway out to the right of that Principle Nose bunker in the photo above? What would be a reason not to take it out beyond those tire tracks in the rough on the right?

[ANTHONYPIOPPI]

Corey,

What is the length of the hole and how far is the Nose from the green?

TE,

That is the orignal placement of the tire tracks. I can see them distinctly in the '34 aerial!

Anthony

[corey miller]

Tom

There is really no good reason to not expand the fairway toward the right.  I suspect just to the right of the tracks we start getting rock outcroppings.  Most all of the fairway expansions are being done in house and will start once the meat of the project is complete.  We also have a few small trees/bushes that must be taken out in this area.

This hole is a ~480 yard par five.  It is a dogleg right from an elevated spot across a valley.  To reach the fairway at aproximately greensite elevation requires a 240 yard drive.  Otherwise, play is to a lower fairway with a tough uphill shot on a diagonal.  Or play from a severe sidehill lie.  The PN bunker essentially comes into play on the second shot for those not going for the green.  The bunker itself runs from 80-100 yards in front of the green.

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