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Kyle Harris

Re:Philadelphia Golf
« Reply #75 on: August 31, 2007, 11:46:16 AM »
They are, and but those designs are seen at other spots on Flynn courses. PCC's opener, to me, is similar in spirit to the 4th at HVCC, for example.

Rolling Green's opener is unique, but how much of that is because of Flynn dramatically changing his style and how much of that is because of the terrain?

mike_malone

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Philadelphia Golf
« Reply #76 on: August 31, 2007, 11:51:06 AM »
 I await Wayne's thoughts on this , but could it be that Flynn's need to impart his "style" on a course was a low priority with him and that he just tried to put the best course on that property. We hear how C+C "found" the holes at Sand Hills. Was Flynn an early pioneer in finding the holes?
AKA Mayday

Dan Herrmann

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Philadelphia Golf
« Reply #77 on: September 01, 2007, 08:09:56 PM »
He sure "found" them on the Flynn courses I've had the honor of playing.

I love how he used the land at RG and Lehigh, but you'd never say that he used it in the same way.  They're both Flynn, but they're both unique and excellent.

Mark_F

Re:Philadelphia Golf
« Reply #78 on: September 01, 2007, 08:42:48 PM »
As a semi-vegetarian, I find the idea of a "cheesesteak" quite intriguing, and one or two of those pictures make them look most enticing, but Pho is one of the two or three finest meals it is possible to eat - a different taste with each mouthful.

Mike Cirba's picture of the dish is akin to Aidan Bradley's golf course photography.

As an aside, I played golf with James Bennett yesterday, and he surprised me by saying that Philadelphia golf - or at least that he had seen - was as undulating and rollicking as the dunes on the Mornington Peninsula down here.

Mike_Cirba

Re:Philadelphia Golf
« Reply #79 on: September 01, 2007, 08:56:07 PM »
....but Pho is one of the two or three finest meals it is possible to eat - a different taste with each mouthful.

Mike Cirba's picture of the dish is akin to Aidan Bradley's golf course photography.


Mark,

We just came back from eating Pho in Lancaster this evening.

I think I need a support group.

wsmorrison

Re:Philadelphia Golf
« Reply #80 on: September 01, 2007, 10:27:05 PM »
"This may get me crucified, but I'm not sure I agree that Flynn has much variety in the Philadelphia area. Is the topo different between Mannies, HVCC, and Rolling Green (for example), sure. I just don't see much variety in terms of doing something really different with the landforms. As we get away from Philadelphia, Flynn's variety seems to take shape (especially at Lancaster).

About the only thing I can think of that's really different in terms of tendencies with Flynn is the comparison of the first holes at HVCC and Mannies... at HVCC the first tumbles down the side of the hill while at Mannies he takes it directly down the hill."

Kyle,

I don't know what variety Mike Malone was referring to...whether  he means the designs themselves or the number of courses in such a small geographic area.  In the first case he just might be right (after 3000 posts it was bound to happen).  I don't think he's wrong on the second interpretation either.  I'm curious to understand your thoughts and examples of a lack of variety.

You say that the land is different at Manufacturers, Huntingdon Valley and Rolling Green yet you don't see any differences in how Flynn used the landforms?  Huh?  I thought you said the landforms were different on the three courses you mentioned.  If so, how could he use them the same way?

You then go on to say that as one moves away from Philadelphia variety begins to take shape, especially at Lancaster.  Please tell me what Flynn courses have you seen outside of Philadelphia--other than Lancaster.

Sure there are some similarities between holes.  If you really study some holes at Lancaster CC you'll see the influences of those designs elsewhere in Flynn's portfolio and the influence of other courses at later designs at Lancaster.  If you consider his work at Merion and Pine Valley, you'll see influences on other courses.  Does that imply a lack of variety?  Hardly.  There are variations on a theme that are different enough that variety does exist.  

You made the statement, please offer specific examples of a lack of variety.

Kyle Harris

Re:Philadelphia Golf
« Reply #81 on: September 01, 2007, 11:15:43 PM »
Wayne,

Please read a bit closer, especially my responses to Sully. Then respond. I cited a difference between the hillside in front of the clubhouse at Mannies and at Huntingdon Valley. Speculation was then made as to whether or not building 27 at HVCC and 18 at Mannies had some influence in that regard. I also understand that the she shapes of the properties are different, but it's still a good contrast in how Flynn attacked the hillside at each course.

I've seen Shinnecock Hills.

I would argue that his work at Merion and Pine Valley is very much influenced by the work of Wilson and Crump, respectively. You can probably cite more specifically how much Flynn's contributions were influenced by the work already in the ground, but as to whether or not that represents Flynn's use or Flynn's integration with what is already there is up for discussion, I'd imagine.

The variety is in the land that was there when the golf course was built, not necessarily on what was built by the architect - that's my point. I think a person intimately familiar with Flynn's architecture would not be shocked by anything he did around Philadelphia. Nothing is terribly out of character. Therefore, the point of my statement is that one could get a decent idea as to the sophistication of Flynn's architecture by playing one of his Philadelphia area courses. That's not to say that they all aren't worth playing, nor repeating playing - but for a sampling... a golfer could play Huntingdon Valley OR Rolling Green OR Mannies and get an idea of Flynn without there being an oppurtunity cost from the other two courses.

Mark_F

Re:Philadelphia Golf
« Reply #82 on: September 02, 2007, 02:17:47 AM »

Mark,

We just came back from eating Pho in Lancaster this evening.

I think I need a support group.

Mike,

Either that,or a recipe that everyone else can follow and see just what they are missing.

Like this: :)

Pho

Pronounced far, it’s difficult to decipher if this is a noodly soup, or a soupy noodle dish.  Whatever, pho is one of the great dishes of the world, an intoxicating mixture of rich broth, silky noodles, fragrant coriander and myriad other seasonings that add incredibly contrasting tastes and textures literally with every mouthful.

A simple chicken broth subtly infused with star anise in which beef, usually, or chicken is gently poached, the result is a luxurious yet simple dish that perfectly encapsulates everything that this e-book is about.  Quick, easy, cheap and with more flavour than you could ever want in a meal, this is the one dish you truly must make.

You will need:
•   a litre or so of good home-made chicken stock
•   a piece of stewing steak, around 250g/½ lb
•   2 star anise
•   a stick of cinnamon
•   a couple of cardamom pods, lightly crushed
•   a stalk of lemongrass, trimmed and bashed
•   half a medium root of ginger, cut into several thick slices
•   a couple of shallots, sliced in half
•   large pinch sea salt
•   2 small red chillies, seeds removed and sliced finely
•   a small handful of coriander leaves
•   a small handful of fresh mint leaves
•   a small handful of bean sprouts
•   a small handful of fresh rice noodles, blanched for 10 seconds, refreshed and drained


To accompany:
•   This is where pho becomes the extraordinary dish that it is. It may seem like you will need to do a lot of fiddling about, but trust me, once whiff, let alone taste, of the finished result, and you will never question the effort again.
•   a small handful of chopped peanuts, roasted gently until golden
•   a small handful of crispy fried shallots –  peel, slice thinly, then gently shallow fry in some oil until golden brown and crispy
•   a small handful of crispy fried garlic  - as above
•   a plump, juicy lime, every last ml of liquid squeezed from it
•   a splash or more of sweet chilli sauce
•   a splash or more of a good quality hoisin sauce
•   a splash of nuoc man


Heat a frying pan over a medium heat. Place the sliced shallots and ginger, cut side down, in the frying pan.  Grill until golden brown.

Seal the stewing steak on both sides in the hot frying pan.

Pour the stock into a pot and add the sealed steak.  Bring to a gentle simmer, skimming any froth that appears.  Simmer for 15 minutes.

Add the ginger, shallots, star anise, crushed lemongrass, cardamom, cinnamon stick and sea salt.  Simmer very gently.  Remove the beef after 1½ hours and continue to simmer for another ½ hour. Strain through a fine sieve. Add the finely sliced chillies, and keep hot on a low heat.  

Slice the poached beef into pieces you can pick up and eat with chopsticks.

To serve – arrange some noodles in the bottom of one of your lovely big noodle bowls.  Arrange the sliced beef over the noodles.  Scatter over some coriander and mint leaves, along with a few bean sprouts.

Ladle over some of the boiling stock.  

Now eat.  The idea is to have the accompaniments at hand, so that you season every mouthful with a different one, and get the heady and delicious combination of, say, soup, noodles, coriander, lime and peanuts in one mouthful, then soup, noodles, beef, mint, hoisin and fried shallots in another.  I’m sure you get the idea.


wsmorrison

Re:Philadelphia Golf
« Reply #83 on: September 02, 2007, 07:37:08 AM »
Kyle,

I admit that I didn't read anything beyond your first post.  Now that I have, I still see little support for your statements.  Before I take the dogs out (literally), let me address one of your points even though I fail to understand your implication.

"I have yet to see a Flynn opener with any sort of water in play, let alone in front of a potential green site."


As to opening Flynn holes with water, the initial hole that comes to mind is the wonderful first at TCC in Pepper Pike, OH has a stream very much in play along the right side and fronting the green.  The original first at Brinton Lake Club (Concord CC) has a creek fronting the green.  The first at Cherry Hills had a stream crossing in front of the fairway 100 yards from the tee.  Likewise, there was a small stream crossing the front of the fairway 130 yards off the tee in the original Flynn redesign of the first at Columbia CC.  A stream crosses the fairway on a nice diagonal at the first at Elyria CC.  At Friendship GC (an NLE estate course in Washington, DC) there was a stream that crossed the fairway and followed the left side of the fairway, which circled part of the green.  The 9-hole Monroe CC has a stream that crossed the fairway on a diagonal from 140 yards (right) to 170 yards (left).  Opa Locka (NLE) had a stream down the left side of the first with a pond fronting a portion of the green.  The first at McCall Field had a diagonal stream off the first tee (since grassed over).  The first at Plymouth CC (PA) had a brook running down the entire right side of the first hole.  Springdale had a small brook that crossed in front of the fairway on the first hole (also grassed over).  The first at the Naval Academy has a pond between the tee and the fairway.

Kyle Harris

Re:Philadelphia Golf
« Reply #84 on: September 02, 2007, 08:06:55 AM »
Wayne,

In a nutshell.

If Sean were to come to Philadelphia and had to select ONE Flynn course to play. I believe he could get as good an idea as to how good Flynn was by playing just one of the Huntingdon Valley/Rolling Green/Manufacturers'/Philadelphia Country Club grouping.

The opportunity cost in experience of only selecting one would not be very high and I don't think Sean would missing much of Flynn's ability be playing only one. Would he be missing some  phenomenal golf? Yes. But he shouldn't regret missing out on the other three if his time and resources are limited.

Sully and I were both hoping you'd jump in earlier regarding some of the other Flynn courses. I should note that only two of those courses with water on the first are in the Philadelphia area...  ;)

I also missed two... the first at Cleveland Heights has a creek about 80 yards in front of the green. One also hits over a creek off the tee on the first at Doylestown, but only from the back tees.

wsmorrison

Re:Philadelphia Golf
« Reply #85 on: September 02, 2007, 08:13:02 AM »
"...for a sampling... a golfer could play Huntingdon Valley OR Rolling Green OR Mannies and get an idea of Flynn without there being an oppurtunity cost from the other two courses."

Of course a golfer can get "an idea" of Flynn by playing one of the courses, but to imply there is sufficiency in that alone is utter nonsense.  Of course there are commonalities but if you think that means there isn't variety, I think that is absurd.  Is the C-5 greensite similar to the later 4th at Lancaster CC?  Yes, there are similarities but the approach angle, fairway slopes and distances are all different.  Is the 8th at Lancaster similar to the 14th at Rolling Green?  Yes, but the greens are different enough.  Is the 8th at Rolling Green similar to parts of the C-9 at Huntingdon Valley?  At the back end, yes, but the bunkering is different as is the tee shot.  There is enough variation on themes to necessitate seeing all his courses, especially given the uniqueness of a majority of holes (HVCC 2 and 11, RGGC 5 and 15, MGCC 2 and 16, PCC 16 and 17 as a small sampling).  

How are the greens themselves lacking in variety?  The collection of par 3s and 5s?  You made the statement, please provide specific examples that support your premise.

Kyle Harris

Re:Philadelphia Golf
« Reply #86 on: September 02, 2007, 08:25:10 AM »
Wayne,

You're pitching me a Red Herring, I won't follow the stench. I said nothing about the greens, just the use of landforms. The original premise of the thread was 5 courses to play on limited time in Philadelphia. Mike (and you) suggested that Flynn should dominate outside of the "Big 2" based on the variety between the courses, but for someone coming into Philadelphia to play 5 golf courses in a limited amount of time, I don't think Flynn has the variety to merit more than one (maybe 2) other courses - especially with some decent work by Tillinghast and Ross in the area. I couldn't, in good faith, suggest playing all the Flynns while missing out on Lulu, Philly Cricket, Aronimink or even Jeffersonville!

Now, change those parameters and make it 10 courses over the span of a 2 weeks, and I will be one of the first to load him up on Flynn.

wsmorrison

Re:Philadelphia Golf
« Reply #87 on: September 02, 2007, 08:28:19 AM »
Wayne,

In a nutshell.

If Sean were to come to Philadelphia and had to select ONE Flynn course to play. I believe he could get as good an idea as to how good Flynn was by playing just one of the Huntingdon Valley/Rolling Green/Manufacturers'/Philadelphia Country Club grouping.

The opportunity cost in experience of only selecting one would not be very high and I don't think Sean would missing much of Flynn's ability be playing only one. Would he be missing some  phenomenal golf? Yes. But he shouldn't regret missing out on the other three if his time and resources are limited.

Sully and I were both hoping you'd jump in earlier regarding some of the other Flynn courses. I should note that only two of those courses with water on the first are in the Philadelphia area...  ;)

I also missed two... the first at Cleveland Heights has a creek about 80 yards in front of the green. One also hits over a creek off the tee on the first at Doylestown, but only from the back tees.

Ahh, now I begin to see what you mean.  Well, if Sean were to come to Philadelphia and had limited time to play (though 36/day is always a possibility) he would understand Flynn's ability in a single course...he's that great.  

As for water on Flynn's first holes, I thought about Doylestown CC, but the hole was changed by Gordon.  Flynn's 1st was a dogleg left with the green in the current 9th fairway.  I'm not sure exactly where the tee was on the hole, but I believe that small stream may have been just forward of the tee.  Flynn's 1st at Cleveland Heights did not have any water on the hole in its initial iteration.

I think this is a random artifact and not the result of a calculated effort on his part.

An architect you only need one course to understand is Macdonald.  Well, for that matter, Raynor and Banks as well.  Much less so than Flynn.  The way you are using the term variety applies to any great architect.  You should be able to infer greatness from one example.  

To better appreciate Flynn and other great architects is to see how they designed on different kinds of land.  If you only saw Rolling Green, could you imagine Shinnecock Hills, Boca Raton South, Cascades, Kittansett and others?  Of course not.  
« Last Edit: September 02, 2007, 08:30:31 AM by Wayne Morrison »

Kyle Harris

Re:Philadelphia Golf
« Reply #88 on: September 02, 2007, 08:39:33 AM »
You know, I was going to write something very similar to your first sentence about seeing one course and realizing the greatness...

Of course I know the subtlety of Flynn in Philadelphia, but we've had the benefit of living here and taking the time to get to know that variety. Sensory overload can stifle understanding, and I think you can miss a lot of Flynn's genius doing the swoop and go. Better to see how he compares to the Ross and Tillinghasts in the area than to dilute one Flynn with another.

wsmorrison

Re:Philadelphia Golf
« Reply #89 on: September 02, 2007, 10:07:57 AM »
I think he'd be better off seeing something besides Tillinghast's effort here, and of course Flynn reworked 12 holes on the course four years after it opened with about 6 of the holes remaining as he redesigned them.

As for Ross's Aronimink, Torresdale-Frankford, St. Davids and LuLu.  All have much to commend them and they are worth seeing, if one was not familiar with Ross.  I would suggest Gulph Mills for someone wanting to consider Philadelphia Ross.  For someone that has little to no experience with inland Flynn, there is much to see and appreciate.  There are 400 Ross courses and many Tillinghasts.  There are only 42 Flynn courses remaining and they merit study by those unfamiliar with him as most are...due to geographic concentration.  Of course, Sean and others will make up their own mind...I am advocating for the less well known and better designed.  I disagree that there is any dilution in seeing multiple Flynn courses during a visit to The Land of Flynn  ;)
« Last Edit: September 02, 2007, 10:09:40 AM by Wayne Morrison »

PThomas

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Philadelphia Golf
« Reply #90 on: September 02, 2007, 06:14:57 PM »
man, I gotta get back to Philly - for the golf and the food!!

and my 2 cents re two of the courses:  I thought R Green was MUCH better than  Manny's....did i miss something??
199 played, only Augusta National left to play!

Dan Boerger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Philadelphia Golf
« Reply #91 on: September 02, 2007, 06:42:07 PM »
P Thomas - I think you are right on the money.
"Man should practice moderation in all things, including moderation."  Mark Twain

wsmorrison

Re:Philadelphia Golf
« Reply #92 on: September 02, 2007, 07:31:07 PM »
I completely agree with P Thomas and Dan.  Rolling Green is a more interesting design and a bit more of a challenge as well.  It is right up there with Huntingdon Valley as my 1a and 1b favorite original Flynn designs in Philadelphia.

Dan Herrmann

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Philadelphia Golf
« Reply #93 on: September 03, 2007, 06:52:15 PM »
Wayne:

You mentioned the Merion Clubhouse on your list of favorite cheesesteaks. I ordered cheesesteaks the last two times I was there and was disappointed both times. ....
Jim

In my experience, the steaks at Merion are absolutely wonderful.  Much tastier than 99% of the local pizza or steak joints in metro Philly.  Nice lean cuts and just enough flavorful zest to satisfy.  

(But I still love the Beef on Weck :) )

Mike_Cirba

Re:Philadelphia Golf
« Reply #94 on: September 03, 2007, 10:15:23 PM »
Mike,

Either that,or a recipe that everyone else can follow and see just what they are missing.

Like this: :)

Pho

Pronounced far, it’s difficult to decipher if this is a noodly soup, or a soupy noodle dish.  Whatever, pho is one of the great dishes of the world, an intoxicating mixture of rich broth, silky noodles, fragrant coriander and myriad other seasonings that add incredibly contrasting tastes and textures literally with every mouthful.

A simple chicken broth subtly infused with star anise in which beef, usually, or chicken is gently poached, the result is a luxurious yet simple dish that perfectly encapsulates everything that this e-book is about.  Quick, easy, cheap and with more flavour than you could ever want in a meal, this is the one dish you truly must make.

You will need:
•   a litre or so of good home-made chicken stock
•   a piece of stewing steak, around 250g/½ lb
•   2 star anise
•   a stick of cinnamon
•   a couple of cardamom pods, lightly crushed
•   a stalk of lemongrass, trimmed and bashed
•   half a medium root of ginger, cut into several thick slices
•   a couple of shallots, sliced in half
•   large pinch sea salt
•   2 small red chillies, seeds removed and sliced finely
•   a small handful of coriander leaves
•   a small handful of fresh mint leaves
•   a small handful of bean sprouts
•   a small handful of fresh rice noodles, blanched for 10 seconds, refreshed and drained


To accompany:
•   This is where pho becomes the extraordinary dish that it is. It may seem like you will need to do a lot of fiddling about, but trust me, once whiff, let alone taste, of the finished result, and you will never question the effort again.
•   a small handful of chopped peanuts, roasted gently until golden
•   a small handful of crispy fried shallots –  peel, slice thinly, then gently shallow fry in some oil until golden brown and crispy
•   a small handful of crispy fried garlic  - as above
•   a plump, juicy lime, every last ml of liquid squeezed from it
•   a splash or more of sweet chilli sauce
•   a splash or more of a good quality hoisin sauce
•   a splash of nuoc man


Heat a frying pan over a medium heat. Place the sliced shallots and ginger, cut side down, in the frying pan.  Grill until golden brown.

Seal the stewing steak on both sides in the hot frying pan.

Pour the stock into a pot and add the sealed steak.  Bring to a gentle simmer, skimming any froth that appears.  Simmer for 15 minutes.

Add the ginger, shallots, star anise, crushed lemongrass, cardamom, cinnamon stick and sea salt.  Simmer very gently.  Remove the beef after 1½ hours and continue to simmer for another ½ hour. Strain through a fine sieve. Add the finely sliced chillies, and keep hot on a low heat.  

Slice the poached beef into pieces you can pick up and eat with chopsticks.

To serve – arrange some noodles in the bottom of one of your lovely big noodle bowls.  Arrange the sliced beef over the noodles.  Scatter over some coriander and mint leaves, along with a few bean sprouts.

Ladle over some of the boiling stock.  

Now eat.  The idea is to have the accompaniments at hand, so that you season every mouthful with a different one, and get the heady and delicious combination of, say, soup, noodles, coriander, lime and peanuts in one mouthful, then soup, noodles, beef, mint, hoisin and fried shallots in another.  I’m sure you get the idea.



Mark,

You're a wise man of impeccable taste.

While not exactly the most "purist" recipe I've seen, reading it certainly gets the taste buds activated.  

Thanks for sharing in another of my particular and peculiar obsessions. ;D