Whitemarsh Valley

[Steve_ Shaffer]

At one time, the 4th at WV was rated to be the "best" par3 hole in the Philadelphia area according to the golf writer of the Philadelphia Inquirer sometime in the 1950s. A copy of the article is posted in the locker room at Philmont as the 9th at North was selected as the par5. Merion's 11th was selected as the par4.

[TEPaul]

Steve:

I remember the old pro tour tournament at Whitemarsh Valley and I remember some players hit driver to that par 3. That day is pretty much long gone at the Tour level.

[TEPaul]

Wayne:

Perhaps it's just the ravages of advanced age or a high level of Lymes disease on my memory but I seem to have totally forgotten that George Thomas had anything to do with the design of the original HV.

On the other hand, very early on Thomas certainly did create some pretty rudimentary looking golf course architecture that looked a lot like a steeplechase course. I believe you and I were together at Marion GC. All those quaint stone walls and such immediately fronting some of the greens most certainly isn't much of an example of the look of "naturalism" in golf course architecture or at least the way we speak of it. I did think the gates installed in some of those stone walls were a nice touch though. I'm not sure whether he intended them to be strategically "played through" or simply to be walked through but who am I to delve that far into the extraordinary golf architectural mind of young George Thomas?  

[Doug Braunsdorf]

Tom,

While you are no doubt correct about Thomas being an innovative thinker, there was a bunker in the 14th green at Huntingdon Valley CC at the Noble, PA site long before Thomas came up with the Riviera design, though it was far from natural looking.

I have never been to Riviera so I cannot say with any authority.  However, consider the par 3s at Shinnecock Hills, Pine Valley, Merion, Rolling Green (yes, really), Kittansett, Philadelphia Country, Gulph Mills, Charles River, Lancaster, Lehigh, Manufacturers as superb collections of par 3s.  In my mind, Flynn considered par 3s to be particularly important and ought to be considered one of the preeminent designers of par 3s.  Too few people know his work but I think the evidence is overwhelming.

I thought we were talking about Whitemarsh; please clarify for me-

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Tom,

Let's see- a 235y par3 in today's world is a 3iron?

[Dave Givnish]

WSJ article on NE 9-hole courses features Marion

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB118859768568715063.html?mod=djemITP

[David Stamm]

Tom,

While you are no doubt correct about Thomas being an innovative thinker, there was a bunker in the 14th green at Huntingdon Valley CC at the Noble, PA site long before Thomas came up with the Riviera design, though it was far from natural looking.



I have never been to Riviera so I cannot say with any authority.  However, consider the par 3s at Shinnecock Hills, Pine Valley, Merion, Rolling Green (yes, really), Kittansett, Philadelphia Country, Gulph Mills, Charles River, Lancaster, Lehigh, Manufacturers as superb collections of par 3s.  In my mind, Flynn considered par 3s to be particularly important and ought to be considered one of the preeminent designers of par 3s.  Too few people know his work but I think the evidence is overwhelming.

While I haven't yet seen any of Flynn's par 3's, I hope to in the near future. Nevertheless, here are Riviera's collection of par 3's. Quite a formidable quartet.


The first pictured is the famous 4th. Hogan called it the greatest par 3 in America. A very difficult Redan that when played into an afternoon wind (coming off the ocean) can require a full 3 wood or even driver. 236 yds.



A closer view of the bunker fronting the green.




The famous "doughnut" hole, the 6th. 175 yds.




The "forgotten" par 3 of the bunch, the 14th. It would probably stand out more if it was on another course with lesser par 3's to contend with. It nevertheless is a fine hole. 176 yds.




Finally, the 16th. Thomas' interpretation of the Short hole, although longer than the typical version. IMHO, one the most interesting greens on a course that is chock full of them. 166 yds.

[Mark_Fine]

It is all a matter of opinion and I am high on Flynn's par threes, but I'm not sure any of his design's rival those from Thomas at Riviera!  I've played Riviera only four or five times but on each visit they seem to get better and better.  

Someone said something about Flynn wanting his bunkers to be avoided.  I'm not sure that is the case.  He wanted his bunkers to be respected and to come into play (both mentally and physically).  

[wsmorrison]

Mark,

Given the apparant lack of elevation change on all or most of the par 3s at Riviera, I find it hard to believe they are collectively among the best set of par 3s in golf.  Of course, I've never been there and cannot glean much from the photographs.  They don't seem superior to NGLA, Rolling Green, Merion, Pine Valley or Shinnecock Hills.  Though the bunkering at Riviera looks darn good!

[Mike_Cirba]

Riviera is one of the 10 best courses in the country IMHO.

It is stupendous and the Merion of the left coast.

However, the par threes at Riv are not the highlight, although 4 is quite tough (you can't play like a redan with Kikuyu however), 6 is unique (but a garden variety par three without the donut bunker), 14 is quite pedestrian, and 16 is a wonderful hole.

Compared to the par three of at least 4 Philly courses that immediately come to mind, as well as a number of others such as ANGC, it probably doesn't make the par three top 10 in this country.

Where Riviera shines is the par fours.   Just unbelievably good.

[David Stamm]

Wayne,


  I didn't say that Riviera's was THE best collection of par 3's, but that I'm not sure that there is better collection elsewhere. Certainly a case could be made with the examples you've cited.

Mike,

  I agree the Kikuyu at Riviera does not allow the Redan to be played the way it was intended. Be that as it may, it's still a great hole. And the doughnut on 6 is precisely why the hole is great. Obviously if it was removed it would be pedestrian, but the ability to use a feature like that and make it seem almost natural was brilliant. I concede that 14 sort of fizzles in comparison, but again, I believe the competition it faces on the same course is quite stout so it may contribute to this perception. And I agree, 16 is wonderful. You may be right, the par 4's there may be it's real strength. In either case, it is a great course. Period.