Can an Archie get too old....?

[paul cowley]

To start, this question is purely hypothetical for me. It came up yesterday as an off-shoot to some possible examples of experience being trumped by younger professionals who "grew up" with the current technology in their respective fields.

As examples, a retired commercial pilot (military trained) said that in an emergency, he would rather have a young pilot flying the plane rather than an older, more experienced one because the older pilot would have re-learned what the younger would have learned from the beginning. (I don't know enough about flying to argue one way or the other).

A surgeon followed with something similar when describing the "video-game" nature of some surgeries. He thought that there might be advantage in the younger surgeon never knowing any other way.

Today, technology seems to have given golf courses all kinds of new play toys and methods. New grasses, new chemicals, new machinery...the products keep coming, the technology keeps changing.

Would a younger Archie be "advantaged" by growing up with this new stuff? Can an old Archie be taught new tricks?

To any Archies who might take offense at my question....I mean none. The question came up in a discussion with myself while enjoying a bottle of wine this past Sunday. I know enough to admit that I can't answer the question. I'm hoping some on here can.....pc.

[paul cowley]

....well paul, you pose an interesting question...and one that I don't want to begin to answer for others...only for myself.

I consider myself on the other side of age numbers, being 55....but as far as design ideas go, I figure that my mind is like an ice breaker pounding through new territory....not always recognizable, but new none the less.... [at least to me].

[Garland Bayley]

I reckon he/she is too old when he/she begins to concern themselves with what golf hole to spend their wedding night on.

[Jeff_Mingay]

Interesting question, Paul.

The younger guy might have an advantage re computer assistance with plans and presentations. Otherwise, I don't think a comparison can be made to the pilot's and surgeon's examples you reference above; as long as the old architect's still sharp mentally, of course.  

My partner, Rod Whitman, walked around Austin CC with Pete Dye a few weeks ago. He says Pete is in amazing shape; both mentally and physically. Rod says he made some very interesting observations and comments during a full-day walking tour over difficult terrain, at Austin. In fact, Pete out-walked everyone, in a large group that day.

Pete's over 80, isn't he? He would've walked circles around a bunch of young guys I know in the business; and certainly would have made more interesting comments about the golf course there!

[paul cowley]

Garland.... if we are going to mix and match posts, blissfully "pounding through new territory", is much preferable to deciding what's the best hole to end it all on...IM

[Ryan Farrow]

I have to agree with Jeff, the only advantage a young'n would have is on the computer using CAD and Photoshop. As far as construction goes, it seems like the technology has basically been the same for quite a while now. Maybe the use of GPS in Dozer blades might change things a little but I don't think that technology will really catch on for the types of architects who are actually out in the field shaping.

[Tom_Doak]

Jeff:  Congrats, I didn't hear that Rod had made you partner.  (If not, maybe you can get Matt Ward to confer the title.)

Paul:  I'm sure there are kids coming out of school who can run circles around me with CAD and get a golf course staked out in the field much faster than I could.  In fact, I may be in the market for someone with those skills right now.

But certainly it's possible for an architect to get too old to relate to what's going on.  I was fortunate to spend some time with Trent Jones, Sr. in his later years and while he was still sharp and active, he was quite removed from his playing days, and I think he was overreacting to the golf he saw on TV in his last few designs as a result.

[Jeff_Brauer]

I think an archie gets too old the minute he says That's the way we've always done it."  

Within the ranks, I have seen hit that age at 30 and other never get that attitude, as with Pete Dye, at age 70 and beyond.

[Peter Pallotta]

Paul
in the words of John Barrymore, "A man is truly old only when his regrets take the place of his dreams".

From your posts, it seems to me you've got a lot of dreams left. I have a feeling there's much great work still to come  from you...

Peter

[TEPaul]

Personally, I don't see what age has to do with it. If you have a fresh and imaginative mind I don't see that it makes a difference if you're 27 or 87.

On the other hand, there probably is a matter of logistics and stuff.

I mean if you need to convince the bus-driver at your retirement community to be sure to pick you up at 5:45am to get you to the site at 6:45am perhaps you should consider packing it in.

[Jeff_Mingay]

Tom D.,

You've been to Texas. Isn't "partner" part of the lingo down there. In other words, I've a lot of partners, partner  

I've read, somewhere, a partner is "a person who shares or is associated with another in some action or endeavor". Whit and I, at least, qualify in that regard  

Seems to me you, yourself, have a bunch of partners as well.

[mike_beene]

Its "pardner" in that context.

[paul cowley]

Actually ones numerical age might be of less importance than the number of years one has been in the business.

This can work in a few different ways as well....some designers can use their past experience as stepping stones to create anew, while others just get jaded and burned out from not enough exposure to anything new, just suffering from too much time in the saddle.

Now for me, I've only been in this business full time since I was 42 [thirteen years]....still a young pup.

Does anyone else but me worry about Brauer and Doak burning out? .....nah, we're in good hands.

That Richardson fellow is of little concern because he seems to morph all over the board....come to think about it, I'm beginning to morph a little bit too.

[Mike_Cirba]

....well paul, you pose an interesting question...and one that I don't want to begin to answer for others...only for myself.

I consider myself on the other side of age numbers, being 55....but as far as design ideas go, I figure that my mind is like an ice breaker pounding through new territory....not always recognizable, but new none the less.... [at least to me].

Yes, an archie can get too old and one of the first signs is when you start answering your own questions.  

Seriously, I can think of a few architects who seem to be improving with age like that guy who just did Chambers Bay or the guy who did Mayacama.  Perhaps even Tom Fazio is seeing somewhat of an upswing in his work, although with all of the larger firms it's difficult to tell if the "name" architect is getting better or just happens to have better associates.  

However, more often I think architects eventually get in a tried and true formula and their works (like much of Pete Dye's work in recent years) often unintentionally become stereotypical parodies (with exaggerated features) of their own best work.

[John Kavanaugh]

As an architect gets older his sites improve.  If the rankers never see a Doak course better than Pacific Dunes does that mean he is getting worse?  Is Pete Dye getting worse because the rankers think the old Crooked Stick is better than the new?  It is the rankers that get too old...I call for term limits.

[JMorgan]

.

[paul cowley]

....and while I'm on the subject, I think the future bodes well for major morphing moves from previously unknown areas.

I think we will be seeing the creation of TP's and Waynes Excellent Design Co lmt....with both domestic and international offices.

....or at the very least 'TomPauls Wedding Planners', specializing in events on Americas Top 100 courses.


....more to come....work is calling

[John Kavanaugh]

If you buy into the C-noter critic philosophy you can bank on an architect getting better as his golf game diminishes with age.  I don't think an architect can get old enough.

[paul cowley]

 

Paul, is there a particular gca you have in mind?

Not really James....but I will say that attending ASGCA meetings, where one is surrounded by a spectrum of Entry to Geriatric level GCA's, gives me a good opportunity to reflect about others careers, and ultimately my own.  

[JMorgan]

.

[paul cowley]

 
Paul, is there a particular gca you have in mind?

Not really James....but I will say that attending ASGCA meetings, where one is surrounded by a spectrum of Entry to Geriatric level GCA's, gives me a good opportunity to reflect about others carreers, and ultimately my own.  

Spill those beans, Paul.   Is this one of those "there-but-for-the-grace-of-God-go-I" GCA situations?  

Using analogous situations that I've experienced -- albeit in different arenas -- I think I know what you mean about reflecting when faced with a range of careers, young and old.  

James....I would if I could but I've probably said too much already....I've got to go now.

[Norbert P]

Methinks Eddie Hackett was 83 when he fashioned his magnum opus Carne Links.  Though his design was discreetly monitored by his living in Dublin -- not a daily jaunt, even for a juvenile half his age, the result is what ANY archie should hope for in a lifetime.

[paul cowley]

I had previously received an email from Bill Amick, ASGCA Fellow, about this thread and he has agreed that I could post it. I found it insightful and I'm thankful he has allowed me to share it with the yahoos who frequent this site.

BTW, Bill is currently in Romania walking the center lines of the country's first 18 hole golf course. He feels the course is a lock to break into the Top Ten there. His email follows;


Hi Paul of our ASGCA,

 

From time to time I scan posts of subjects on the GolfClubAtlas.com Discussion Group that would seem interesting to me.  That way even an aging golf course architect can learn or realize new things.  For purely personal reasons your "Can an Archie get too old?" caught my attention.  Being 75 puts me in "in danger".  Yet I'm still fooling some clients I guess because of my longevity, having started working for Bill Diddel in 1955 and opening my practice in 1959.

 

I don't have the answer for your purely hypothetical question in regard to me or as it could apply to other course architects.  I can only offer a few thoughts which I hope you'll find of some interest, since you posed the question you did.

 

Definitely those who started or early got into using computers and other recent tools of the trade are much better at those than we who long used pens on velum or mylar over topos.
 
On other aspects as the newer grasses and such, I'm not so sure youth necessarily has the edge.  Too quick and insufficiently tested innovations a few times have led to unsatisfactory results for owners.
 
Repeating methods and design techniques over time might be labeled as doing the same old things for too long.  But if those have proved to work are generally accepted by golfers and a designer suitably adapts those to each site and situation, what's so bad?  Grabbing onto trends because they are trendy for a time can also have its limitations.
 
From seeing a lot of other golf course architects come up and go down the pike, in an oversimplified way gezers appear to go in one of two ways.  The critics and hard competitors in their early days in time kind of get even more difficult to be around.  The other larger group tends to get more tolerant of the work of their peers.  They understand that each practitioner in their individual way is trying to do the best course they can for their clients and the future golfers. A really great thing and I'm sure you have sensed it, is that most ASGCA members encourage that latter group and isolates the behavior of the former.
 
I feel (perhaps erroneously) my routings have tended to get better with experience, even though like most of us I thought mine were pretty superior in the beginning.  I see some of my earlier layouts and realize some of their significant flaws.  Maybe it's because I still really like and continue to be stimulated by doing routing plans.  Especially on an exciting site that offers the opportunity for lots of interesting holes.  I search harder now for what seems the best balance of holes and I'm not so impatient when I first find one that works fairly well.
   
If you are a little concerned, you will not be too old for a long, long, long time, if ever.  And continue to enjoy a little wine at the end of difficult days and wearing weeks.  Youth has no advantage in that reward.  In fact one can learn moderation in this activity by remembering the way one felt from not moderating the night before in "the good old days".
 
ASGCAer Amick

[Norbert P]

I had previously received an email from Bill Amick, ASGCA Fellow, ...

 Bill is currently in Romania walking the center lines of the country's first 18 hole golf course. He feels the course is a lock to break into the Top Ten there.    

  Do we need to wear garland's of garlic and a crucifix to play it? Does the Count play golf with those flashing golf balls?

    Great correspondence from Bill.  Good solid words of experience mixed with a bit of wit and humility.

  I suggest y'all read the previous post . . . twice.  Plenty of gems in there.

[paul cowley]

I had previously received an email from Bill Amick, ASGCA Fellow, ...

 Bill is currently in Romania walking the center lines of the country's first 18 hole golf course. He feels the course is a lock to break into the Top Ten there.    

  Do we need to wear garland's of garlic and a crucifix to play it? Does the Count play golf with those flashing golf balls?

    Great correspondence from Bill.  Good solid words of experience mixed with a bit of wit and humility.

  I suggest y'all read the previous post . . . twice.  Plenty of gems in there.

I agree Slag....so I thought I'd bump it again so others can read it twice.