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Brad Swanson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Template Holes: Raynor vs Engh ?
« on: August 28, 2007, 06:04:21 PM »
I had this thought after seeing the pictures of Black Rock that Tommy Williamson posted earlier today.  Having played a number of Engh courses in Colorado and seeing lots of pictures :o from his other courses posted here, I think Engh might overtake Raynor with the use of template holes.  Your thoughts on the use of modern template holes vs the classic template holes?

Cheers,
Brad

Brad Swanson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Template Holes: Raynor vs Engh ?
« Reply #1 on: August 28, 2007, 07:34:16 PM »
Engh's use of the template concept may fall in the middle of the spectrum between the strictest sense of the Raynor templates and the looser "template routing" 5-3-4 Pete Dye finishing sequence.  Discuss.

Cheers,
Brad
« Last Edit: August 28, 2007, 07:34:29 PM by Brad Swanson »

astavrides

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Template Holes: Raynor vs Engh ?
« Reply #2 on: August 28, 2007, 08:32:35 PM »
can you give me an example of an engh template hole?  after 30 seconds of thinking, I couldnt.  he certainly has template bunkers though and at least one template green that i can think of.  

Brad Swanson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Template Holes: Raynor vs Engh ?
« Reply #3 on: August 28, 2007, 08:45:12 PM »
Dogleg par 5 18th hole that curls around water (Fossil Trace and Red Hawk Ridge, possibly others?).

Downhill par 5 1st hole that moves right to left (same 2 courses).

Cheers,
Brad
« Last Edit: August 28, 2007, 08:46:02 PM by Brad Swanson »

Andy Troeger

Re:Template Holes: Raynor vs Engh ?
« Reply #4 on: August 28, 2007, 09:11:12 PM »
Brad,
I've been tempted to start a thread on the comparison in styles between Raynor and Engh, but hadn't actually gotten up to do it. I'm not sure Engh builds template holes quite to the same extent that Raynor did, however, he uses his template greens, bunkers, and strategies to create interesting designs and courses. Are they a bit repetitive? Yes, but one would have to think Raynor's would be as well. I unfortunately cannot comment beyond what I've read on this site as I've not played any Raynor or MacDonald courses, but have one coming up  ;D

The 18th at Tullymore and Pradera curl around water. Both are daring par fives, as is the finisher at Lakota Canyon.

The 1st hole at Tullymore, Pradera, and Lakota are also all par fives. It seems like Engh forgot his plans at Redlands Mesa, which begins and ends with a par four!

From my understanding of Raynor and MacDonald, it seems like they tended to polarize opinions much like Engh does today. They all certainly were willing to think outside the box. They might not be everyone's cup of tea as they certainly are not natural looking which many GCA'ers favor...I'm not going to pretend I care much about natural or contrived as long as the hole works and is fun to play.

Personally I really enjoy seeing the way Engh fits his holes and methods into different properties. While I prefer to seek many different architect's work because I like the variety that provides, I will admit that Black Rock and the Reynolds Plantation course would be fairly high on my priority list based on what I've seen thus far.

Jim_Kennedy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Template Holes: Raynor vs Engh ?
« Reply #5 on: August 29, 2007, 08:40:10 AM »
Quote
From my understanding of Raynor and MacDonald, it seems like they tended to polarize opinions much like Engh does today.-Andy Troeger

Andy,
I think a look at the client list of CBMac/SR/CB blows your theory.
Macdonald had a novel idea, bring tried and true examples of 'real' golf to America. If their work is considered as 'polarizing' today, it's because it's taken out of context.
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Andy Troeger

Re:Template Holes: Raynor vs Engh ?
« Reply #6 on: August 29, 2007, 08:46:51 AM »
Jim,
Could very well be, I don't pretend to be an expert on the subject. I just wonder if someone will say the same thing about Engh in 80 years, despite the many GCA'ers that don't seem to like his stuff. The great majority of golfers seem to like it well enough. Time will tell.

Jim_Kennedy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Template Holes: Raynor vs Engh ?
« Reply #7 on: August 29, 2007, 09:04:32 AM »
Andy,
Time always tells.
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

astavrides

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Template Holes: Raynor vs Engh ?
« Reply #8 on: August 29, 2007, 10:54:37 AM »
Dogleg par 5 18th hole that curls around water (Fossil Trace and Red Hawk Ridge, possibly others?).

Downhill par 5 1st hole that moves right to left (same 2 courses).

Cheers,
Brad

I did think of your first example.  ok, i'll give you those.  and lakota's #1 and #18 sort of fall into that template.  and #13 at redlands and #1 at snowmass are other examples of the first type.  of course, im sure I could think of similar examples of those templates by other architects.