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Mike Hendren

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Name The Architect (Part III of IV)
« on: October 31, 2005, 09:41:31 AM »
Previously:



and



Today's photograph offers a third distinctive look:



Same golf course?  Same architect?

Mike
« Last Edit: October 31, 2005, 09:43:56 AM by Bogey_Hendren »
Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

TEPaul

Re:Name The Architect (Part III of IV)
« Reply #1 on: October 31, 2005, 09:55:33 AM »
Whomever the hell that architect was it looks to me like he was having a stylistic identity crisis on one golf course! Looks like he couldn't decide whether he wanted to be like Bendelow, Ross or Raynor.  ;)

Mike Hendren

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Re:Name The Architect (Part III of IV)
« Reply #2 on: October 31, 2005, 09:57:29 AM »
Tom,

Exactly!  

« Last Edit: October 31, 2005, 09:57:48 AM by Bogey_Hendren »
Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Name The Architect (Part III of IV)
« Reply #3 on: October 31, 2005, 10:02:54 AM »
Looks like the same course to me...
Are they your photos, shot or photoshopped in black and white and maybe the double green complex reversed and from different angle?

No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Mike Hendren

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Re:Name The Architect (Part III of IV)
« Reply #4 on: October 31, 2005, 10:19:16 AM »
Dick,

These are original photographs circa 1940.

Mike
Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

Dan Kelly

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Re:Name The Architect (Part III of IV)
« Reply #5 on: October 31, 2005, 10:26:33 AM »
... it looks to me like he was having a stylistic identity crisis on one golf course! Looks like he couldn't decide whether he wanted to be like Bendelow, Ross or Raynor.  ;)

Is that a BAD thing? Isn't there room in your big world of golf for a variety of styles within the same course -- if the variety PLAYS well?
"There's no money in doing less." -- Joe Hancock, 11/25/2010
"Rankings are silly and subjective..." -- Tom Doak, 3/12/2016

Brent Hutto

Re:Name The Architect (Part III of IV)
« Reply #6 on: October 31, 2005, 10:40:38 AM »
In the first picture, is there a net or fence behind the green on two sides? There seem to be some pretty tall poles not far from the green.

T_MacWood

Re:Name The Architect (Part III of IV)
« Reply #7 on: October 31, 2005, 11:21:41 AM »
Its not that unusual for a golf course--with a checker architectural lineage--to exhibit more than one style...from hole to hole or even a single hole.

Andy Hughes

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Name The Architect (Part III of IV)
« Reply #8 on: October 31, 2005, 11:28:05 AM »
Those two greens in the last photo are awfully close together, almost dangerously so.  I've never seen greens so close other than an alternate green setup. Even the second photo struck me as greens fairly close together, but not as scary close as the third pic.  
"Perhaps I'm incorrect..."--P. Mucci 6/7/2007

TEPaul

Re:Name The Architect (Part III of IV)
« Reply #9 on: October 31, 2005, 11:28:08 AM »
"Is that a BAD thing? Isn't there room in your big world of golf for a variety of styles within the same course -- if the variety PLAYS well?"

DanK:

I never said a thing about it being a BAD thing but that's a good question and something I've been thinking about for many years now.

But please don't get my "theories" mixed up with each other. Basically, my "Big World" theory is that there needs to be many different types and style of golf architecture out there because there're so many different types of people with different tastes who'll want to be playing golf. This, however, never meant those different types and styles have to be or should be on the same golf course!  ;)

But I do draw a line there, and that is if a golf course such as my own happened to evolve over the decades with a number of good architects having a hand in the architecture of the course. I say that because in a way it tells an interesting story about the evolution of golf architecture and first and foremost that's what fascinates me most about this entire subject of golf architecture. Of course that does need to be carefully evaluated as to quality. For instance, the Ross holes and the Perry Maxwell holes on my course are not of the same type or style really but they are equally good nonetheless.

On the other hand, I'm a great believer in all kinds of variety on a golf course and I'm no fan at all of formulaics and standardizations in design. I'd say I like eccentricity the best. So yes, in some way the "Big World" theory could perhaps lap into a single course somehow or how else would I be so into my other great love---eg "Flask achitecture"?

I mean look at some of Tillie's courses. You can tell that some of his holes and features were designed in the am when his head was throbbing, his flask was still full and he was argumentative and unimaginative. But you can also tell his holes and features that were designed in the pm when his flask was nearly drained and he was incredibly imaginative and incredibly smart, when he was waving his arms wildly and producing ideas loudly as he was just able to balance himself on his shooting stick. This is "flask architecture" at its absolute finest, in my opinion.

If some formulaic standardizing architect mentioned to Tillie that what he'd done throughout that day seemed out of character from am to pm I have no doubt Tillie would've knocked the jerk over with one of his akimbo arms and thrown up on the guy's shoes as he fell off his shooting stick and passed out for the evening only to return the next morning at the other end of the creative spectrum.  ;)
« Last Edit: October 31, 2005, 11:37:34 AM by TEPaul »

Ian Andrew

Re:Name The Architect (Part III of IV)
« Reply #10 on: October 31, 2005, 02:51:48 PM »
The bottom green is a dead ringer for the 4th at Orchard Park (Buffalo -New York), a Travis course. The location does not seem likely (assuming others are correct) but the style has many reminicents of some of his work.

The first picture works with many examples, but the second would not if that is looking up the fairway into the bunker. It would be an example of something I have yet to see before (except on a couple of short par threes - of questionable originality)


I'm enjoying the post - but am left afraid to guess - since this would prove I don't know very much.  ;D

mark chalfant

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Name The Architect (Part III of IV)
« Reply #11 on: October 31, 2005, 05:40:42 PM »
Seth   Raynor  at CC of  Charleston fornt  9 ??

Brent Hutto

Re:Name The Architect (Part III of IV)
« Reply #12 on: October 31, 2005, 06:11:53 PM »
Seth   Raynor  at CC of  Charleston fornt  9 ??

The houses do look like something you'd see along the South Carolina coast. When he posted the first picture I was put in mind of the Beaufort-Savannah area.

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Name The Architect (Part III of IV)
« Reply #13 on: October 31, 2005, 11:12:36 PM »
Nice guess Mark.  But, although I don't know the answer, I'm pretty sure it isn't CCofC.  But, the greens on 1,2,3 do look a lot like those in the pics. I just checked my own pix of CCoC to be sure.

When do we get the answers Mikey?
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Ronald Montesano

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Name The Architect (Part III of IV)
« Reply #14 on: July 30, 2008, 11:10:40 AM »
Did Mike pass on?  Why didn't we ever get the answers to his pictures question?
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Peter Pallotta

Re: Name The Architect (Part III of IV)
« Reply #15 on: July 30, 2008, 11:22:10 AM »
Ronald -

that (and this thread) deserves another 'bump', for lots of reasons.

As far as I know, Mr. Hendren has not passed on (thankfully). I believe he was in his Pat Mucci phase in 2005....

Peter
 

Kalen Braley

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Re: Name The Architect (Part III of IV)
« Reply #16 on: July 30, 2008, 11:32:45 AM »
I really like what the mystery architect did with those greens, especially that 2nd one which almost looks like a triangle.  With the ditch long and right, can't say I've seen anything quite like that before.

Can we get Michael to step back in and relieve the suspense after nearly 3 years!!  ;D

JNagle

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Re: Name The Architect (Part III of IV)
« Reply #17 on: July 30, 2008, 12:33:32 PM »
I am going to take a crack at it and throw Willie Park Jr's name in the mix.  Each photo reveals features I have seen on four of his other courses.
It's not the critic who counts, not the man who points out how the strong man stumbled, or the doer of deeds could have done better.  The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena; whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; .....  "The Critic"

Mike Hendren

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Re: Name The Architect (Part III of IV)
« Reply #18 on: July 30, 2008, 02:06:29 PM »
This is Donald Ross' Memphis CC.  I don't have my notes with me but I believe Foulis built nine holes and Bendelow added another nine, both of which were very short lived, as Ross was there very early in his career and is touted as the architect.  That could explain some of the variety in the greens. 

The golf course is brilliantly routed on about 105 acres with the front nine along the boundary counter-clockwise and the back nine featuring three hole counter-clockwise sequence inside of a five hole clockwise sequence.  The side-by-side greens in the third picture are the 9th (right) and 18th.  The latter has been re-built and moved to the left.  That green and the 8th are the only greens re-built post Ross, though the the severe back to front slope of the third has been slightly softened due to higher green speeds. 

I have similar 1940 photographs of all 18 greens that were only recently discovered.  Unfortunately those photographs were not available when the greens were converted to champion bermuda (the super there, Rod Lingle, is a somewhat a pioneer of champion) and the greens today remain generally rounded as mowing evolved over the years.  The full green pads, many surprisingly squared, remain in tact. 

I was recently privileged to play LuLu CC in Philly and thrilled to see that they are expanding and restoring many of the squared edges of their Ross greens, which look remarkably like several of the photographs of Memphis CC. 

Mike
Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

Mike Hendren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Name The Architect (Part III of IV)
« Reply #19 on: July 30, 2008, 02:08:27 PM »
If I can find the CD I'll try to post the photographs of all 18 greens.
Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

Kyle Harris

Re: Name The Architect (Part III of IV)
« Reply #20 on: July 30, 2008, 02:09:39 PM »
This is Donald Ross' Memphis CC.  I don't have my notes with me but I believe Foulis built nine holes and Bendelow added another nine, both of which were very short lived, as Ross was there very early in his career and is touted as the architect.  That could explain some of the variety in the greens. 

The golf course is brilliantly routed on about 105 acres with the front nine along the boundary counter-clockwise and the back nine featuring three hole counter-clockwise sequence inside of a five hole clockwise sequence.  The side-by-side greens in the third picture are the 9th (right) and 18th.  The latter has been re-built and moved to the left.  That green and the 8th are the only greens re-built post Ross, though the the severe back to front slope of the third has been slightly softened due to higher green speeds. 

I have similar 1940 photographs of all 18 greens that were only recently discovered.  Unfortunately those photographs were not available when the greens were converted to champion bermuda (the super there, Rod Lingle, is a somewhat a pioneer of champion) and the greens today remain generally rounded as mowing evolved over the years.  The full green pads, many surprisingly squared, remain in tact. 

I was recently privileged to play LuLu CC in Philly and thrilled to see that they are expanding and restoring many of the squared edges of their Ross greens, which look remarkably like several of the photographs of Memphis CC. 

Mike

The last picture has a similar look and feel to the 15th and 16th at Lulu.

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