[Matt MacIver]

Andy - apologies for covering old ground, it's a miracle I can find my golf shoes anymore.  Interesting to hear the locals' POV.  Thanks.  

[Matt_Ward]

Candidly, I don't know how one can measure the reaction of people and what they prefer from a local perspective.

[CHrisB]

I would not be at all surprised if a majority of locals would favor Paa Ko Ridge over Black Mesa. It's easier, more soft/lush, equally scenic, and ranked higher in most publications. Note that none of these traits has anything to do with the architecture.

But it is a very good course and a wonderful place to play golf, and although I personally prefer Black Mesa (but not by miles), I'll have to go back and play each one a few more times just to make sure.

[Tom_Doak]

Matt:

The hole I liked least at Black Mesa was actually the opener.  I passed on the back tee and moved up one set, smacked a good 3-wood right over the post, and went around the hill to find I'd knocked it through the fairway and into a bunker.  Then, from the bad angle through the fairway, I pulled my second over the green left up on the side of the hill.  If I played the hole again I guess I'd hit a 3-iron tee shot, which is not a great start to me.

I'm not by any means a long hitter, so to me that tee shot actually discourages people from playing the middle markers and makes them think about moving too far back.  It would be a better hole if there were more fairway on the "through line" and no bunker there, IMHO.

[Mike Nuzzo]

Tom,

On the first I would hit my 4 wood and it winds up quite safely - but you're right it can get pretty close to the bunkers.
I once played with driver and nutted it between all the bunkers by the green.  Not that I'd probably do that again - but I did make birdie.

The bunker left front of the green is my favorite looking on the course - it has a very long point of contact with the native ground and ties in quite ruggedly.
The green is fun too.

And yes it does look from above like an iron off the tee as close to the left as possible would be the best play, but I can't remember the pin settings.

I'm assuming that Matt tries to drive the green.

[Jim Nugent]

Matt:

The hole I liked least at Black Mesa was actually the opener.  I passed on the back tee and moved up one set, smacked a good 3-wood right over the post, and went around the hill to find I'd knocked it through the fairway and into a bunker.  Then, from the bad angle through the fairway, I pulled my second over the green left up on the side of the hill.  If I played the hole again I guess I'd hit a 3-iron tee shot, which is not a great start to me.

I'm not by any means a long hitter, so to me that tee shot actually discourages people from playing the middle markers and makes them think about moving too far back.  It would be a better hole if there were more fairway on the "through line" and no bunker there, IMHO.

Tom, what Doak rating do you give the course?  

[Matt MacIver]

...I passed on the back tee and moved up one set, smacked a good 3-wood right over the post, and went around the hill to find I'd knocked it through the fairway and into a bunker.  Then, from the bad angle through the fairway, I pulled my second over the green left up on the side of the hill.  

That's exactly what happened to me, too -- frustrating way to start a round.  I always assumed that more local knowledge would have led me to hit less club off the tee or play more towards the left, but I don't know how open the left is (I don't recall it being that inviting) and driving the green seemed fun, but maybe too much risk-for-the reward.  

[Matt_Ward]

Tom D:

When you reached the fairway bunker after hitting your tee shot -- that's one of the strengths of the hole. You can go too far and when people try to advance the ball further up the fairway the actual width of the landing area in that space does become a good bit constricted -- as it should.

This is essential for those who are big hitters and want to thread the needle (about 12 yards across) between the leftbunker complex and the bunker that you mentioned on the right-center location point.

The 1st hole does have an "optimum" place to play the approach. You need to get the ball to somewhere around 100-120 to get maximum spin control.

I agre 1000% w Mike N regarding the well-situated bunker complex on the left side. It is totally natural -- you can get a decent lie to advance the ball to the green even -- there are also other times when just finding the ball is a big time plus.

One other thing -- for a hole to be under 400 yards and clearly demand some real thinking / execution I find out to be a superb opener.

Last item -- the green complex is also first rate. I particularly enjoy the back portion of the green which slopes noticeable from back-to-front. Just don't leave your approach above the hole if you want to write four on the scorecard.

[Tom_Doak]

Matt:

I know we are not always on the same page in the playbook.  For me, a blind bunker off the first tee which forces a good player to hit a lay-up club is not a "strength" of the hole.  

It seemed to me that the green itself rewarded shots to the inside corner, so the bunker through the dogleg is superfluous; even if there was more fairway on the "through line" the angle for the approach would be very difficult.  I just wouldn't have put a bunker there.

[Matt_Ward]

Tom:

C'mon -- a bit more consistency in thinking. You have blind bunkers for courses across the pond and plenty of people gush until they pop with praise on such inclusions.

Why is such a thing acceptable in one locale and not in another?

One other thing -- it might behoove you to have played the one more than once to thoroughly understand what is there now.

The far bunker is well-placed because it protects the easier angle to frontal left pin placements that can be difficult to see and appreciate when playing from the tight left side.

I like the deep bunker because often times stronger players will milk the tee shot for all it's worth and not be challenged accordingly in trying to reduce the hole's overall quality with such a play.

Keep in mind one further item -- this is a hole less than 400 yards from the tips and is an ideal opened to test all types of players -- the main issue I have is when people who can't play at a certain consistent level head to the tip tees and then bitch and moan about unfairness and all other such drivel when they should "accept their limitations" and play from a tee box that ties closer to the way they actually play.

[George Pazin]

...the main issue I have is when people who can't play at a certain consistent level head to the tip tees and then bitch and moan about unfairness and all other such drivel when they should "accept their limitations" and play from a tee box that ties closer to the way they actually play.

If the best way for some folks to get around a course is to move way up and bunt the ball around, is that the mark of a great course?

[Adam Clayman]

Personally. I don't see how the tees I play, or, the score I make, changes the elements that constitute great GCA.

A man may be a very good golfer and yet know little about golf architects and golf architecture.

CHARLES BANKS

[Matt_Ward]

George:

There are holes where I need to "bunt" the ball from the tips when playing -- it does not mean the hole / course is deficient. It simply indicated that a different option is sometimes needed in order to play the hole in a given fashion.

One final item -- the tip tees are created for a particular reason. Those who can't hit the ball consistently will likely find the same course a more pleasant and rewarding experience when the intensity of the challenge is more in line with their ability levels. This rationale applies equally to Black Mesa, Royal County Down or any other top tier layout.

For the rest of those who whine and bark incessantly about unfairness and the like, these are the same people who can't hit Kansas from Oklahoma I have one suggestion for them --

GET LESSONS ...

[Andy Troeger]

Matt M.
No problem, I like having some discussion of New Mexico on GCA and am happy that there are two courses out here (and actually more than that) worthy of the discussion.

Matt W.
I'm sure what part of what I said was unclear, but I've spent the last nine months in Albuquerque and have talked to a fair number of people here about golf courses (although its not a statistically relevant sample by any means). I would guess that close to 75% of those that I have talked to prefer Paa-Ko. Doesn't make them right, doesn't mean anyone has to care, but that's what I've discovered.

[Matt_Ward]

Andy:

Thanks for sharing.

Stats from people are no different than those who think McDonald's and Burger King make superb burgers. Ignorance is bliss for many -- ditto the thoughts on Black Mesa.

The quality of the course is a good bit beyond any other encountered in the state for my tastes. What's so funny is how others who have posted on the course have highlighted its overall playability. Amazing when people follow Clint Eastwood's axiom -- "A man's got to know his limitations."

[Pat Brockwell]

I'm always asked for the secret to playing Black Mesa.  I tell 'em
"Play shots you have."

[Matt_Ward]

Pat:

I'd be curious to hear what you think is the better nine -- the front or the back at Black Mesa. I'm leaning towards the back because of the wider divergence in holes, overall routing and slightly more intense shot requirements.

[billb]

I too liked Paa-Ko but didn't see as much strategy as I did at BM -- note I only played each course once.  And (in a vast over-generalization) I thought the par 5s at Paa-Ko were pretty monotonous -- way too much risk to ever try going for a green in two, so just layup to 100 and wedge it on.  

Maybe I would fell different with more rounds, but I didn't get that feeling at BM.  

Loved the first par 3 and #17 from the tips (top!) at Paa-Ko though!

My first attempt at posting a pic here - this was taken last week from the top tee box at 17 at Paa Ko Ridge.

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2019/1801211396_33d552c417.jpg?v=0

[Marty Bonnar]

Bill,
you need:
img in SQUARE brackets
before your link
and
/img in SQUARE brackets
after your link:



Rookie mistake

FBD.

[Bill_McBride]

Tom,

On the first I would hit my 4 wood and it winds up quite safely - but you're right it can get pretty close to the bunkers.
I once played with driver and nutted it between all the bunkers by the green.  Not that I'd probably do that again - but I did make birdie.

The bunker left front of the green is my favorite looking on the course - it has a very long point of contact with the native ground and ties in quite ruggedly.
The green is fun too.

And yes it does look from above like an iron off the tee as close to the left as possible would be the best play, but I can't remember the pin settings.

I'm assuming that Matt tries to drive the green.

My first play was 4-wood into the middle of the fairway and, unfortunately, 9-iron to the back of the green with a front pin.  Routine 4 putts later, double.  I love that hole!  

You don't want to be above that front hole location.

[billb]

Bill,
you need:
img in SQUARE brackets
before your link
and
/img in SQUARE brackets
after your link:



Rookie mistake

FBD.

Thanks, I was wondering why the image didn't show, I figured someone would show me the light!

[billb]

I too liked Paa-Ko but didn't see as much strategy as I did at BM -- note I only played each course once.  And (in a vast over-generalization) I thought the par 5s at Paa-Ko were pretty monotonous -- way too much risk to ever try going for a green in two, so just layup to 100 and wedge it on.  

Maybe I would fell different with more rounds, but I didn't get that feeling at BM.  

Loved the first par 3 and #17 from the tips (top!) at Paa-Ko though!

First par 3 at Paa-Ko (#4)

[Matt MacIver]

I played this hole from a much shorter tee box way left of this picture; from there you approach the green at a 45 degree angle, so it's a pretty thin landing area.  So if you're long...you're on the side of the hill, chipping back downhill toward the bunkers.  Fun hole where numerous tee boxes and potential pin placements ensure lots of variety.  

[Andy Troeger]

What are thoughts on #10 at Black Mesa? That's the one hole that I haven't really figured out if I like or not. Actually, I take that back, I really like the green, just not sure about the tee shot with being so narrow combined with blind over the hill. I could deal with blind if it were wider or narrow if you had a better idea where the ball was going, but I'm not sure I like the combination.

Granted, after you play #11 you forget about it anyway  

Played Black Mesa again today with Pat B. Through some discussion and watching others play the hole correctly I finally understood the point of the hole and the risk/reward options presented. I also figured out where to aim and decided for myself that the hole was not as narrow as I had thought based on previous playings. As I said before the green is great, one of the best on a course with many great ones. Beautiful 65 degree sunny day today, gotta love New Mexico!

[Matt_Ward]

Andy:

Glad to read your take / re: BM's 10th hole.

I think it's one of the best par-4's you can play in the entire state of New Mexico.

You need sufficient distance but also uncanny accuracy. Those who take the more aggressive line -- down the left center have got to have both distance and direction to accomplish the task.

There's been discussion from some people that laying back before the bottleneck is the way to go. It might be for those who have total confidence in the long iron, hybrid or even fairway metal shot.

I'm glad you now can understand that the "narrowness" you highlighted previously as nothing more than the actual dimensions of the hole from a visual terror standpoint that the site and the architect have linked together. It plays a tremendous role in psyching out a good deal of players who encounter the hole.

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