[Garland Bayley]

...
I haven't played Black Mesa but would very much like to get out there and play it along with a few others in NM...

Perhaps a small GCA trip is in order??  

Make sure you rent a cart to do your usual cart ball round! This time keep it out of the pictures.

[Andy Troeger]

What are thoughts on #10 at Black Mesa? That's the one hole that I haven't really figured out if I like or not. Actually, I take that back, I really like the green, just not sure about the tee shot with being so narrow combined with blind over the hill. I could deal with blind if it were wider or narrow if you had a better idea where the ball was going, but I'm not sure I like the combination.

Granted, after you play #11 you forget about it anyway  

[Matt_Ward]

Gents:

I'll answer the rest when sufficient time permits ...

Andy, on the subject of #10 I think it's one of the best par-4's you can play anywhere. At 457 yards it has enough length to keep the big hitters in check.

The 10th at Black Mesa reminds me of so many superb Irish holes where a narrow canyon must be dealt with off the tee and the surrounding sides are filled with mega trouble. You can find examples of this at Royal County Down, Ballybunion and Dunluce / Portrush.

When you stand on the tee you need to work a draw at the distant cedar tree that is visible from the tee box.

The hole is clearly intimidating to the max -- the slightest push to the right and you end up on the massive hill to the right -- finding / playing a ball out of the area is at best 50 / 50. If you overcook left you need to carry the ball at least 290 yards to avoid the hillside that still juts in from that side.

I've seen people play the hole in a variety of holes -- a mark of superior hole. The person who decides to lay back can do so but that only puts more pressure on the 2nd shot.

If you do work the ball into the proper position the fairway will provide plenty of roll out. Frankly, the best side of the fairway to approach the green is the left and it's very demanding to get your approach to that side.

To Baxter Spann's credit -- the green runs on a diagonal from lower left to back right with various ridges and slopes running through the entire green. If you do miss you need to be on the right side -- pull the approach shot and all best are off for making par.

The only one thing I would change is getting the cut down to fairway height for any shots that miss to the right. As of now, you can use the higher grass on that side to keep your ball from rolling further away from the target.

When I played the hole the wind was blowing from left-to-right which made it very easy to lose tee shots to the right. The key at BM's 10th hole is not to be so intimidated that you talk yourself out of the play you feel most confident in executing.

I generally hit driver and when hit solidly I can finish up at or near the 100 yard mark for a short pitch into the target. The last day I played the 10th -- the pin was cut in the F-A-R right and required a sure-footed play no doubt.

The best thing about the 10th, and for all of BM, is that a well-placed drive greatly assists your play but it doesn't automatically mean the hole will then surrender.

The 10th is a gem of hole and one would even consider designing today.

Tim P:

Fair point.

I'll answer shortly.

[astavrides]

Bill McBride:

I simply wanted to know how you would stack up playing both courses. You answered in your last post. Thanks ...

astavrides:

I didn't get it wrong buckeroo.

I've played BM and LCR several times and while I can appreciate what you and Kalen have said -- the kick-in mounding on the left of #9 at LCR is really a band-aid element added by the architect to "help" poor shots that are pulled in that direction.

Engh has a tendency to use bowl-shaped greens to level the playing field -- especially with misses.

On #3 at LCR you have several small putting greens all located within the larger canvass. No doubt luck can influence any shot but the probability from the times I have played both holes indicated to me at least that the 3rd gives little quarter unless a well-played skill shot is made.

Kalen:

The qualities of #3 give the player the belief that it is "tolerant." Play an indifferent approach and let me know how many times one three or four putts on that hole.

I also think the natural qualities of the view are far superior at #3 -- #9 shows clear signs of artful design via heavy usage of the bulldozer.

One other thing -- look at the totality of the par-3's at Black Mesa and Lakota Canyon Ranch -- no doubt IMHO, BM has the edge and it's not really that close.

***

Again -- may the thread go back to Black Mesa !!!

podner,

I banked my teeshot off the back hillside (unintentionally) to 2 ft on #3LC.

[George Pazin]

What are thoughts on #10 at Black Mesa? That's the one hole that I haven't really figured out if I like or not. Actually, I take that back, I really like the green, just not sure about the tee shot with being so narrow combined with blind over the hill. I could deal with blind if it were wider or narrow if you had a better idea where the ball was going, but I'm not sure I like the combination.

Granted, after you play #11 you forget about it anyway  

I loved the 10th, it might be my favorite hole there. I also loved the 13th and 14th, and the 17th.

I don't get the love for the 11th. Can someone explain to me what I missed?

[Andy Troeger]

Interesting, two votes for. I'll have to give it another chance when I got back and see if I can figure it out. I agree with most of Matt's defense for it in terms of features, just need more plays I guess to maybe "get" it.

#11 to me is admittedly mostly about the setting in the canyon. The hole itself has a a neat green but probably not as much character in the playing of the hole some of the others. Its a neat spot to be sure.

Lots of good holes out there, its hard to pick a favorite for me.

[CHrisB]

I don't get the love for the 11th. Can someone explain to me what I missed?

George,

For me much of it is the location of the green, right at the mouth of that mini-canyon running down from the sandstone formations behind. A daring and amazing place to put a golf hole.

By the way, both times I have played the hole, the wind has done some really strange things there. It's like the wind is blowing one way above all of the formations, and blowing another way in the canyon, so that the ball is really affected differently depending on its trajectory. Pretty strange to see a flag blowing one way while the ball is being blown the other way...

[Adam Clayman]

[Adam Clayman]

To Baxter Spann's credit -- the green runs on a diagonal from lower left to back right with various ridges and slopes running through the entire green. If you do miss you need to be on the right side -- pull the approach shot and all best are off for making par.

This description is foe sheit. No mention of the small shelf?

[Mike Nuzzo]

To get to the back right pin play a little extra club to the middle of the green - the land directs the ball to the back right.

Adam,
I wouldn't want to be short right of the green - it is pretty steep there.
I think the play is to do what I described above -- unless there is a front pin - which can't be had from anywhere but the front.

The putt from back right to front left is a wild ride - impossible actually.  You can see the steep shadow on the green in adam's posted pic.

[Patrick Kiser]

[Matt MacIver]

While reading this thread, #10 came to mind as one of my favorites there...at least one that I most want to play again.  

Part of that is because I only played the course once...and not knowing how much of the blind left-side to bite off, I erred to the right...and ended up on the cart path.  No free drops there.  Still made a 5, which is good for me.  

Can someone tell me how much trouble is off to the left on your drive, i.e. if you try to bite off too much and/or hook it.  I didn't get a chance to play from over there, but I suspect that's the best angle to play in from.  

But I'll say it again: BM bears repeat playing, and I suspect I would like the course even more if I had (and I liked it a lot).  

[Mike Nuzzo]

Matt,

aerial

From experience there is trouble left if you don't hit it well.
There is more room however and you won't hit it through the fairway.

Cheers

[Adam Clayman]

Mike, Great aerial. It clearly shows the topography too. The discolored grasses show the high spots. On #10 the last hump in the fairway 40 yards short of the green, acts a turbo boost and is the way to play a ground type shot, if someone has played safely with a short drive. Not everyone can have a wedge in their hands.

[Bill_McBride]

Everybody always thinks of #16 as the wildest green out there, and it probably is.  But that green at #10 offered maybe even more cool ways to move the ball around.  Wild, great Baxter Spann green!  

Does anybody know what Baxter is working on these days?

[Matt_Ward]

Anyone who thinks you can get a turbo boost from the last mound that Adam mentions had better have the last name of Woods and the first one of Tiger -- check that, the last name of Zuback and the first one of Jason.

Those who are hitting it that short of the tee will really need to eat more Wheaties and a few more push-ups in order to get a bit further down the fairway from the tee.

Matt M:

You have room down the left side -- the play would be over the center point of the fairway bunker complex that's seen from the tee. Keep this firmly in mind -- the carry over the left side is considerably longer and the harsh land extends around to the other side of the bunker complex. You really need to fly the ball no less than 280-290 yards (from the tips) to reach the fairway area on that side. It is preferable to approach the green from that side since all the pin areas are more readily available.

The smart play is to hit a draw (for righthanders) and use the available fairway dimensions to aid your play.

As you find out -- pushing the tee shot -- even the slightest bit right -- can mean a very demanding time. You were quite fortunate to escape with a five.

Bill McBride:

When you speak about wild greens I'd also add the 7th and 14th holes -- to of the finest short par-4 holes you can play anywhere in the USA. I personally believe the 7th hole is no less in terms of overall quality than what you see with the 10th at Riviera. I know how that might sound with the ultimate classic types who inhabit GCA land -- but the 7th at BM provides plenty of options.

Gents:

In regards to the box canyon 11th hole -- the key is being sure to hit plenty of club -- the holes essentially plays 1-2 clubs longer than the listed yardage of 178 yards. Not only is the setting spectacular but the plateau in the rear portion of the green requires a shot with sufficient distance to fly all the way back to that area.

As others have opined -- the swirlign winds in that area make club selection always difficult.

[Adam Clayman]

Matt, You clearly play a game no one is familiar with.

Anyone who comes to the tenth, their first time, without Ed peck encouraging you to challenge the blindness with a slight fade, will opt to play conservatively. This will inevitably leave a longer shot into the green. When the pin is on the shelf, the shelf that Matt left out of his description of the green(or did he call it a roll?), it's all but impossible to hold, unless one has tremendous control, with both distance and spin. Unless you play a bump and run that lands 35-40 yards short, catching the left side of the turbo boost, culminating on the pinned shelf. Since I only play one ball, it was this one ball that I played in this manner to a successful conclusion, once.

How many balls did you drive to get one to the 100 yard mark, Matt?

[Matt_Ward]

Adam:

"How many balls did you drive to get one to the 100 yard mark, Matt?"

I hit 3 balls and two were on the 100 yard plate -- the other finished along the left edge of the fairway and had about 105 yards. No one was behind me so the opportunity availed itself. That was good of you to play only one ball. Maybe your understanding of the hole is limited to the way you play the hole. So be it.

Adam, try to realize this -- Black Mesa is at 5,000+ feet of elevation -- the hole funnels tee shots IF they are played correctly from the tee.

Those who opt to lay back are only making the hole PLAY EVEN HARDER ! Also -- laying up is no easy feat either as the rough and rock areas do pinch in from both sides.

One other thing -- you don't play a fade on the hole -- it requires a slight draw to fit what the terrain / hole calls upon.

Couple of other elements you failed to mention or simply forgot. The front portion of the green is the most difficult to access. You need to hit the shot high enough to stop and avoid any runouts. The further back the pin is located makes for an easier play. Nonetheless, one still needs to come in high and soft when the pin is flush right against the edge.

One further thing -- I'd like to see them cut the grass on the right side of the green as it slopes away. With the higher cut of grass a ball can stay up and make a recovery a fairly easy thing to do. With a fairway cut -- balls missing to that side will run out and go much further away from the green -- similar to what you see with the par-3 8th.

All in all, I do agree 10000% that the 10th is a gem of a hole. It provides a "thrill" and "fear" factor the moment you arrive on the tee. The setting was made for a golf hole of vintage caliber and Baxter Spann hit a home run there big time.

[Brad Swanson]

Couple of other elements you failed to mention or simply forgot. The front portion of the green is the most difficult to access. You need to hit the shot high enough to stop and avoid any runouts. The further back the pin is located makes for an easier play. Nonetheless, one still needs to come in high and soft when the pin is flush right against the edge.

Matt,
   My fist go around on 10 I saw my 3 playing partners hit their approaches to the front right pin before me (the esteemed gents being Tom Huckaby, Ran Morrissett and Baxter Spann himself).  Nobody could go right at that pin and hold it with a high shot.  I hit a short iron of some sort (wedge I think) into the bank on the left, which killed the shot and the ball trickled down right next to the hole.  There is more than one way to skin the front pin on 10.

Cheers,
Brad

[Matt_Ward]

Brad:

Kudos to you and other gents in playing the hole a different way. Let me rephrase -- the higher percentage play is the high and soft approach. Since the way you played it worked out more power to you.

One of the advantages in driving it further down the fairway is when you have SW or PW in your hand. The hole provides a clear reward for those who opt for the riskier tee shot and then pull it off. Playing the hole further back -- as I said in my previous post -- only makes the hole play harder.

One question -- given the holes you have played how would you rate the qualities of the 10th overall ?

[George Pazin]

I personally believe the 7th hole is no less in terms of overall quality than what you see with the 10th at Riviera. I know how that might sound with the ultimate classic types who inhabit GCA land -- but the 7th at BM provides plenty of options.

I can't compare the 7th to Riv's 10th (haven't had the pleasure, yet!), but I didn't think as highly of the 7th as you, Matt. I just don't see much reason to ever lay-up. My first time round, I did, hitting a conservative tee shot, and it landed in the middle of the fairway and almost ran OB, only staying a yard inside the desert.

Second time through I saw no reason not to go for it.

I will say, it's a very very interesting driveable par 4, but I don't see the layup shot as being a worthwhile option, unless it's your only option.

Also, to everyone, I don't see the setting of the 11th as that special - guess the canyon walls don't do much for me. The hole location was upfront, so I didn't get to experience Matt's dalliance with the back green shelf.

[Brad Swanson]

George,
   I'm not a huge fan of #7 either.  The 1st go round we played the hole from one tee up and I drove over the green.  Same thing happened on #14 as well.  I can't recall the last time I drove over 2 par 4s in one round, but, then again, I'm no Matt Ward. .

Matt,
   Regarding #10, I didn't get the full on experience on the tee shot as I don't think we played it from the tips.  The approach shot was really fun to that front pin, though.  I'd like to see how you change your approach (pun intended ) when the pin is moved further back on the green.  

Cheers,
Brad

[Matt_Ward]

Brad:

Play the back tees before pronouncing the 7th and 14th holes as easy prey. Ditto the 10th at BM. I get a good chuckle out of people -- not just you I might add -- who poo-poo holesbut often times it's from a tee box that's not the maximum. People who play Riviera's 10th from the middle tees could very well say the same thing.

One other thing -- even if driven from the back tees -- which I have done -- there's no sure birdie waiting for either person. Be curious to know what you scored -- I have seen others drive the green(s) and then walk-off the putting surfaces wondering how they could so easily three and four putt.

It's not the amount of times that a person that drives a green that determines if the hole is a superb one -- it's the knowledge that simply driving the green alone WILL RESULT in a sure-fire birdie.

Play the 7th when the pin is cut to the extreme right and the hole becomes a real bear to handle.

I stand by what I said -- I love the 10th at Riviera but the 7th and 14th at Black Mesa are both very good and the 7th I see as nothin less than an equal.

George P:

Help me out OK -- you have not played the 10th at Riviera and yet you can with strong conviction tell me I'm all wet when I say just how good the 7th truly is. Hello -- am I missing something in that profound analysis?

The 7th features a very strong green and even when laying up there's no sure guarantee with what you then face but often times laying up prevents having to face the dreaded half-wedge shot that won't hold. So yes, there's a plus in doing so.

The 11th is far stronger than you believe. The box canyon area provides a spectacular backdrop to the hole and as I said previously -- gauging the proper club selection there is extremely challenging.

[George Pazin]

Help me out OK -- you have not played the 10th at Riviera and yet you can with strong conviction tell me I'm all wet when I say just how good the 7th truly is. Hello -- am I missing something in that profound analysis?

I'll be happy to help you understand what I thought was rather simple:

I have not played the 10th at Riviera, so I am not going to try to compare the 2 holes.

I have played the 7th at BM, and thought that it was a very nice driveable par 4, but that the layup risks far outweighed the rewards, so I didn't think it was really an ideal short par 4. I am in no way comparing it to Riv's 10th, I am simply saying it isn't all that in my book.

I thought my other post was pretty clear, but hopefully that will help you understand. I had momentarily forgotten that this was your own opinion site, not a discussion site to discuss relative merits of holes - my bad.

Regarding the 11th, I didn't think it was that difficult to judge a half club uphill. Took me about a second and a half to pick a club and end up pin-high both times I played it. One time on the green, once just right in a little depression - which actually was a cool little feature, now that I think about it.

[Matt_Ward]

George:

You're most welcomed to "discuss" whatever you like -- but try to add to your credibility when you take issue with my comparisons and you have not played both of the examples given.

Geeze, I'd thought you'd get that elementary principle -- as you say -- my bad.

P.S. Try to understand that laying up is a good option at the 7th at BM when compared to half wedges that don't stop to tightly placed pin locations.

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