[Andy Troeger]

Matt,
You certainly need length (especially from the black tees, but somewhat also the blues) but the key is to be able to pick a line and have the confidence to hit it there. There are a lot of ways to play the hole, and any of them can cause problems if not properly executed. There certainly are speed slots on both sides of the fairway to add distance and shorten the hole. Going right makes the hole longer, but the green does accept a running shot so its an option as you said, but still a challenging one.

[Jay Flemma]

Matty, I have written so much on BM lately, I didn't get a chance to check in before, but great thread (you too andy).  Adam is right, it's one of the best values on the country.  Yes, andy, I like paa-ko too.

[Pat Brockwell]

Let it be known that Andy the Assassin finishes birdie birdie for a smooth 72,  and in THAT weather!

[Andy Troeger]

Let it be known that Andy the Assassin finishes birdie birdie for a smooth 72,  and in THAT weather!

The blind squirrel evidently found some glasses. Now where'd I put them...

[Matt_Ward]

Andy:

One of the real challenges I'd most like to face is playing #10 into a headwind. I have not had that situation in all the different times I've played the course. I've played it in a major cross-wind from both directions but never dead into the teeth of one.

Clearly, the hole presents challenges that start immediately at the tee. Like I said, in all of the holes found in NM I'd rate this one as one of the best par-4's you can play.

Situating the hole between the two mounds worked extremely well and the diagonal angle of the green is also well thoughout out. Candidly, I see the extreme front pin as the most challenging.

[Andy Troeger]

Matt,
I've not played the hole into a headwind either, I've somewhat lucked out in not having too much wind of any kind in my trips up there. The extreme front pin is most challenging from my view as well, and the back right pin might be one of the easier with the green funneling back to that location. That doesn't mean its easy as short right would be a difficult pitch, but the playing area of the green is much bigger than it looks in the back.

[Matt_Ward]

Andy:

One of the real neat holes at BM comes with the canyon-enclosed par-3 11th.

It lists out at roughly 175 yards from the tips -- but when the pin is placed in the far rear -- the green has got be at least 35 paces from front to back it requires at least two more clubs to get all the way to the rear areas.

The green has a slight slope that rises from front to back and because of the swirling nature of the wind it's hard to pick out the appropriate club.

A superb hole because it is different from the other par-3 holes you encounter at BM.

[Andy Troeger]

The par threes at Black Mesa as a group provide an interesting group of holes. The 11th is a very neat setting as we showed as well Saturday that it does play longer than its listed yardage. The pin was far front at only 145 yards but having the advantage of teeing last that hole I went back and grabbed an extra club and still barely managed pin high yardage. All three others came up a bit short. The back pins are very tricky because its such a longer shot and the green is narrow with some interesting contour. It looks like it could be a fairly simple hole but ends up being anything but.

The par threes are all well done though at Black Mesa, it would be tough to pick a favorite of the bunch for me.

[Matt_Ward]

Andy:

Of the four par-3 holes I believe getting close to the far left side of the par-3 15th is the toughest approach.

People tend to play off the hillside to the left of the 15th green but the resulting bounce will carry a ball through to the far right side.

I know plenty of people who see the right side of #15 as being toucher because it's closer to the water on the extreme right. I don't see it that way.

In regards to #11 the first time I played it I hit a 9-iron to the center of the green. To get to the extreme rear took a 7-iron shot.

The 8th is a tiger of a hole -- especially when played in a severe headwind. I can remember the day I played with a 40-50 mph wind and needed driver to get the hole. The wind simply snaps back into your face as you tee off through the exposure that cuts out between the two cliffs / mounds to each side.

No doubt the quartet is quite varied and appealing in so many ways.

[Bill_McBride]

Matt:

I know we are not always on the same page in the playbook.  For me, a blind bunker off the first tee which forces a good player to hit a lay-up club is not a "strength" of the hole.  

It seemed to me that the green itself rewarded shots to the inside corner, so the bunker through the dogleg is superfluous; even if there was more fairway on the "through line" the angle for the approach would be very difficult.  I just wouldn't have put a bunker there.

Tom, it's only blind once, right?  And the yardage book was pretty good.  The big problem was not knowing how far you were going to hit it at that altitude.

I played the hole twice one day in September 05 (?) with the GCA.com crowd.  First time I 4-putted from behind the hole, way up in back.  Bad mistake with club selection.  Second time no problem, hit one less club to 3', birdie. Now I love that hole!  

[Andy Troeger]

It probably depends on the day, as you said into the wind #8 would be brutal, even on a calm day its the longest of the four holes and not an easy target (although fairly large). The back right pin on #8 which we saw Saturday with right-to-left breeze was basically inaccessable without some kind of heroics.

Any back pin on #15 would be up there as well, although the difficult part about a back right pin is not the water but the slope just left of the pin. It would be an easier pin to get close to from the tee because of that slope if the shot is played well, but arguably a harder par because any putting or chipping to the back right position is very difficult to judge and very few balls will get back to that little back right area from the tee.  

[Matt_Ward]

What people don't really understand about BM is when the wind does whip up.

Then things change D R A M A T I C A L L Y ! ! ! ! !

There's enough room to keep your ball out of the garbage weed (which in many spots will allow for you to recover with more than just a sideways SW / PW).

The par-3's in dead air play significantly less challenging then when the wind picks-up big time.

[Matt_Ward]

Andy, et al:

Be very much interested in how you play the 18th hole -- from either the middle or tip tees ?

Thanks ...

[Adam Clayman]

Matt, The 18th hole is a lesson in self restraint. Playing for the macho ball buster shot is a fools folly.

A slight cut to the 150 yard mark is all that's required to have a short iron/wedge in. Playing towards the left hillside is the prudent play because the hill acts like containment, up to a certain point.

[George Pazin]

What people don't really understand about BM is when the wind does whip up.

Then things change D R A M A T I C A L L Y ! ! ! ! !

I think many understand this, and indeed, fear it. Not in a truly frightening sense, merely in the sense of the potential for creating unpleasant situations.

Matt, I know I tease you (and that's being kind to me) a lot about things on here, but the one thing that I'm truly, honestly curious about is how you decide what warrants replays. It seems as though you've visited BM and Wolf Creek quite a bit - I'd have thought you'd be busy discovering new places.

Again, that's an honest question, maybe even an envious question, not a criticism.

[Matt_Ward]

George:

I always like to get the comments of others who have played places that I like personally. Sometimes it enlightens me on aspects I've either ignored or in other cases placed too high a value.

To answer your question -- I have a number of key courses that I like to play return rounds on when the opportunity arises. I often write on new experiences I have sampled and often there may be a course or two in that mix that is worth my time to see again.

Sometimes, I even return to places where my initial round was not that impressive but I've heard word that things have improved (e.g. Apache Stronghold is one quick example). In that particular case the verdict was a mixed one.

Adam:

I have heard stories of people who have driven the 18th -- no doubt a helping wind helps matters. Would like to see that with my own eyes.

No doubt the preferred play is to fade the ball and leave yourself no more than a short iron or PW into the target. However, I've seen wind directions that come out of the North / Northeast and then one must decide at the tee whether or not to hit more club in order to get into the optimum position.

[Andy Troeger]

Matt,
I've never even considered anything but playing to the 150 marker on #18, even from the blue tees. A good three wood for me that lands in the left side of the fairway bounds along and leaves me with a 9-iron in. I've made two birdies in a row playing it that way so I'm not going to change it now!

For my game though, I hit three wood all day pretty much at BM (only hit driver on #5, 6, and 13, plus 9 from the tips to see how it played from back there). Helps me keep the ball on grass.

[Matt_Ward]

Andy:

Read your last response with interest -- when you play Black Mesa do you alternate tee distances played or do you play mainly from one area?

[Andy Troeger]

Most of the time I play from one area, however the blue marker on #9 is always moved well up to about 350 yards (instead of 400 on the card). The hole isn't much for me from that yardage except an iron off the tee and a wedge into the green so I wanted to play it further back to get a better feel for the hole so we went all the way back (440 I think).

Since I played very well this last time I will likely either play the blacks the next round or mix and match more to try different tees.

[Matt_Ward]

Andy:

Be mindful of the fact that from your previous statements you have not encountered BM in any real sustained W-I-N-D.

The elasticity of the course speaks for itself in my mind.

Those who have decried the course in terms of unfairness usually play the wrong tees and likely have an inferior game to boot -- as a result they poo-poo the layout as being not solid for all types of golfers.

Of course, I find such statements to be full of holes.

p.s. One last thing -- I'd like to see the 9th have a new back tee area because strong players routinely play short of the bunkers that push in on both sides of the fairway and then hit an iron from that point. A new tee -- possibly angled to either the left or right -- the right would be the better choice - would likely force the better players to hit even more club to get closer to the green and thereby bring the bunkers back into play or be forced to hit an even longer approach if they continue with the lay-back option.

[Andy Troeger]

Matt,
You could build another tee, but laying back from the bunkers can be a risky place due to the angled drive on the fairway so there's decisions to be made in any case. Laying back brings the left side desert/arroyo into play which can be a disaster waiting to happen, but I do agree that a long hitter can still either hit three wood to the right side or hit driver and not have more than a 9-iron approach on a windless day.

I won't be trying the black tees in the wind  

[Steve Lang]

   
Possibly one's biggest concern in a sustained wind at BM should be the wind-borne fungi, bacteria, and silica.. especially for those not native to the area.. kinda like a Valley Fever in Phoenix..  we played in a mild wind and by then end of the day, 36 behind us, many a kleenex used, the Pink Adobe antidote was perfect..

Like 1-2-3 club winds anywhere, you have to be calibrated to play well.. anything above that is just adventure golf

[Matt_Ward]

My main concern with the 9th -- beyond what I already mentioned -- is that having bunkers side-by-side in the drive zone is fairly rudimentary in terms of design. I'd much rather see angled bunkering with the one on the left pinched in slightly and the one on the right to be placed slightly further down the fairway and flaired accordingly.

Andy, the long / better player will not pull driver out unless circumstances require it. The 9th when played into the wind allows those type of players to go full bore.

However, if players can simply lay-up with the existing yardage and tee angles in effect -- the approach from short of the bunkers is not that demanding -- liekly in the 170-180 yard range. Since that will mean the bunkers are reduced to no effect -- the better player has circumvented much of what makes the hole play as it does for others.

[Andy Troeger]

Matt,
What happens with that laying back approach, if you miss the shot left? There is a fair amount of room right, but a mishit to the left with laying back seems like it could find trouble. The best players shouldn't hit that shot, but they probably can hit driver between the bunkers anyway.

[Matt_Ward]

Andy:

If memory serves -- the space between the bunkers is fairly tight -- say around 20-22 paces. And since the 150-yard mark is just before the bunkers that would mean slotting a driver from 290-300 yards through that point. For those who can hit that shot ON COMMAND more power to them.

That's why the lay-up is preferred and defeats the hole strategy for that level of player -- unless certain tweaks are added.

Seriously, when you say a player may miss left -- sure --anything is possible. Is it likely? Doubtful.

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