[Patrick_Mucci]

What architectural features commonly produce differences in scoring  ?

And, what are those scoring differentials ?

My candidate would be a tiered green where the height differential is greater than 3 feet seems to produce higher scores when the hole location is on the back, upper tier, versus the lower tier.

I'd guess that the differential between the front, lower and the back, upper is a half a stroke, especially as the hole gets longer.

[Adam Clayman]

Patrick,
The height differential doesn't have to be that big, if the rear tier is narrower than the front(s).
The original penultimate hole at Bannf Springs has this feature.

[Joe Hancock]

Pat,

Are you talking about individual scoring differential, or a scoring differential amongst a field?

What level of play?

Joe

[JESII]

Joe,

Must be individual differential from day to day based on..."My candidate would be a tiered green where the height differential is greater than 3 feet seems to produce higher scores when the hole location is on the back, upper tier, versus the lower tier."[/i]

I prefer to think in terms of differential withon a field for one days play, but this is certainly a topic of its own...



How about split tees with a real difference in difficulty from one to the other...for whatever reason?

How about a sever bunker protecting a front hole and a green sloping from front to back?

Sorry Pat, no specific examples at present on either, but they might be candidates.

[Brett Hochstein]

With regards to the tiered green hypothesis, I have found that when green speeds are raised above a ten that the hole location on the lower tier closest to the ridge is far and away the most difficult, especially if the front tier slopes toward the green front.  In this situation, being on the top obviously leaves one no chance to get close or even stay on the surface.  It also makes being on the lower tier and close to hole-high a nearly impossible proposition.  It requires playing higher up the tier to have a chance of making the putt, but doing so also adds the speed in which the ball falls off, meaning the leave will be more distant or even off the green entirely.  A hole location under these conditions means there is only about 15-20% of the green that will provide a makeable first putt/easy two putt.

The green complex i'm thinking of most here is the 12th at Franklin Hills, in which the tier is only about 1.5-2.0 feet of change

[Phil Benedict]

I assume you are talking about day-to-day scoring based on hole location.  If this is the case I think the biggest difference maker is sloped greens where balls tend to collect in one spot.  I think Augusta is a case in point.  When flags are set on the high spots on greens like 5, 13,14 and 16 a majority of the players have to two-putt from 50 feet because so many balls end up in the collection area.  By the same token, when the flags are set at the low spot on these greens lots of approaches end up near the flag.  I can't think of a course where is as easy to manipulate scoring as Augusta because there as so many holes where pin locations are really hard or really easy.

[BCrosby]

Phil -

You make a good point that was noted a week or so ago in a slightly different context. There aren't many courses with as many sucker pins at ANGC.

Sucker pins - almost by definition - create scoring differentials.

But of a limited kind. Tough pin positions create scoring spreads that start at par and end at scores over par.

Isn't the more interesting question what type of holes promote scoring spreads from eagles and birdies at the low end to doubles and triples at the high end?

Those tend to be great holes.  But they don't create their remarkable scoring spreads with just pin positions and green contours. They have a lot more going on.

Bob

[Jeff_Brauer]

Convoluted/confusing routing causing some golfers actually miss a few holes, and report scores about 8 strokes less than their normal play.

I would be interested to hear why Adam thinks narrower at the back tiers increase scoring differential.

[Adam Clayman]

Jeff, When the pin is placed there it creates all sorts of things to happen in the golfer's minds eye, which I conclude lead to a higher scoring differential.

A. The player misses the shot leaving a difficult recovery.
B. The player plays the wrong shot also leaving a difficult recovery.
C. The player plays short and safe, leading to three putting.
D. The player executes ending in a low score.

The fourth at Spyglass didn't mmediately come to mind, but since you asked about the narrowness, I can confirm that green also provides greater score differentials for all the reasons listed above.

All of Pebbles' greens are narrower than most, and at the elite level, the 2000 open surely had a score differential.

I'd like to know why Patrick thinks it's just the height differential?

All the two or twenty holes have what in common? Surely not length.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat,

Are you talking about individual scoring differential, or a scoring differential amongst a field?

What level of play?

Joe,

Universal scoring differentials.

What level of play ?  The members and their guests.

All too often on this site, issues are contexted SOLELY at the PGA TOUR level of play

[Patrick_Mucci]

With regards to the tiered green hypothesis, I have found that when green speeds are raised above a ten that the hole location on the lower tier closest to the ridge is far and away the most difficult, especially if the front tier slopes toward the green front.  

That would seem to present the easiest target.
A green that slopes toward the golfer with a backstop to aid him.[/color]

In this situation, being on the top obviously leaves one no chance to get close or even stay on the surface.  

It also makes being on the lower tier and close to hole-high a nearly impossible proposition.  

Why ?

Where have you seen a severely sloped two tiered green where the back tier is elevated 3 feet or more above the front tier ?

And, isn't the front tier almost universally larger than the back tier, and open at the front ?[/color]

It requires playing higher up the tier to have a chance of making the putt, but doing so also adds the speed in which the ball falls off, meaning the leave will be more distant or even off the green entirely.  A hole location under these conditions means there is only about 15-20% of the green that will provide a makeable first putt/easy two putt.

Is this an imaginary green, or a real green ?

If it's a real green, could you provide a photo as it sounds extreme.

If it's imaginary, then it shouldn't be cited.[/color]

The green complex i'm thinking of most here is the 12th at Franklin Hills, in which the tier is only about 1.5-2.0 feet of change.

I've played Franklin Hills, but, it was a long time ago and I don't recall the specific green.[/color]

[Joe Hancock]

Pat,

Are you talking about individual scoring differential, or a scoring differential amongst a field?

What level of play?

Joe,

Universal scoring differentials.

What level of play ?  The members and their guests.

All too often on this site, issues are contexted SOLELY at the PGA TOUR level of play

Pat,

I would amend that by saying all too often in all of golf, issues are contexted solely at the PGA level.

As far as scoring differential for members and guests, I would say there is a "built in" scoring differential for higher handicappers, just because of inconsistencies in their swing and capabilities. For the more consistent player, the scoring differentials, as induced by features and conditions, could probably be subtle or bold. A few that might be considered:

Spined landing zones

Firm conditions on rumpled ground

Long, narrow bunkers that affect shots of many distances

I'm not positive if that is the kind of thing you're thinking of....

Joe

[David Stamm]

My candidate would be a tiered green where the height differential is greater than 3 feet seems to produce higher scores when the hole location is on the back, upper tier, versus the lower tier.

I'd guess that the differential between the front, lower and the back, upper is a half a stroke, especially as the hole gets longer.

When I read this Patrick the 16th at Pasatiempo sprang to mind. The middle tier is, IMHO, the most difficult of the tiers because of the penalty that occurs for not hitting it. I have observed a few 3 and 4 putts for not doing so.

[JMorgan]

The first shot of #2 NGLA is a good example of one.

[Brett Hochstein]

With regards to the tiered green hypothesis, I have found that when green speeds are raised above a ten that the hole location on the lower tier closest to the ridge is far and away the most difficult, especially if the front tier slopes toward the green front.  

That would seem to present the easiest target.
A green that slopes toward the golfer with a backstop to aid him.[/color]

In this situation, being on the top obviously leaves one no chance to get close or even stay on the surface.  

It also makes being on the lower tier and close to hole-high a nearly impossible proposition.  

Why ?

Where have you seen a severely sloped two tiered green where the back tier is elevated 3 feet or more above the front tier ?

And, isn't the front tier almost universally larger than the back tier, and open at the front ?[/color]

It requires playing higher up the tier to have a chance of making the putt, but doing so also adds the speed in which the ball falls off, meaning the leave will be more distant or even off the green entirely.  A hole location under these conditions means there is only about 15-20% of the green that will provide a makeable first putt/easy two putt.

Is this an imaginary green, or a real green ?

If it's a real green, could you provide a photo as it sounds extreme.

If it's imaginary, then it shouldn't be cited.[/color]

The green complex i'm thinking of most here is the 12th at Franklin Hills, in which the tier is only about 1.5-2.0 feet of change.

I've played Franklin Hills, but, it was a long time ago and I don't recall the specific green.[/color]

I think you sort of figured it out by the end of your dissection.  What I was hinting at not-so-directly was that the green speeds are out of control, near 12 I would guess.  From what I witnessed on 40 or so rounds this past summer, being on the lower tier off to the side(close to hole high) on the aforementioned position on FHCC #12 leaves the player absolutely dead when the previously slower speeds would provide some opportunity for the best executed putts.  I understand and have seen many cases where a hole hugging the lower end of a tier is downright easy if approached correctly.  I'm simply providing the counterexample with the changing conditions of the modern game mixed with classic green sites.

Also, I'd love to provide photographic evidence, but I am somewhat of a computer idiot.  Hopefully soon I'll figure it out so I can get even more involved here.

[Wyatt Halliday]

Mr. Mucci,

For some reason my imagination about tiered greens went haywire when you posted this.

My altered state left me with visions of a straightaway hole climbing gently uphill. Void of bunkers off of the tee, the approach produces difficulty due to a reverse biarritz (or call it upside down) green with a lone central bunker. The bunker protects the middle shelf from a frontal assault.

Hole locations do indeed dictate angles of play. With ample room for recovery provided by the fairway level green on the left and right sides, the scoring differentials could be endless.

BTW - Has anyone ever seen this type of green? I would love a picture to validate my insanity.

[Adam Clayman]

Hole locations do indeed dictate angles of play. With ample room for recovery provided by the fairway level green on the left and right sides, the scoring differentials could be endless.

BTW - Has anyone ever seen this type of green? I would love a picture to validate my insanity.

Pinon Hills has greens that have tiers separated by elevation changes of 3-5 ft. The angles are where these greens show their metal. Sorry no pictures that would do them justice.

Jeff, New?

Patrick, ?

[Tags:]

Tags:

[Tags:]

Tags:

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()