[John Kavanaugh]

Am I the only one sick of left fairway bunker right greenside bunker design?  What are other examples of textbook design?  What can be done to get something, anything new?  Has the over-education of critics and architects taken the thinking out of strategic play?

[Joe Hancock]

John

I wonder if creative routing over interesting, unique terrain would address your question?

Joe

[John Kavanaugh]

John

I wonder if creative routing over interesting, unique terrain would address your question?

Joe

Joe,

I see alot of great routings comprimised by textbook bunker placement, green shape and size, fairway camber, and tree removal.

[Joe Hancock]

In that case, let's assume no bunkers, at the very least....

Joe

[John Kavanaugh]

This may explain why the obligatory one no bunker hole, found in chapter 7 on how to build a modern ranked course, is the most difficult hole to design.

[John Kavanaugh]

Just checked to make sure...The 17th at the Renaissance Club is bunkerless.  Could someone please build a course without a bunkerless hole or a driveable par 4.

[Joe Hancock]

But, there are courses out there with 5 or 6 bunkerless holes, and some of the bunkered holes have only fairway bunkers with no greenside bunkers, or greenside bunkers with no fairway bunkers.

[John Kavanaugh]

Why not have some fun and name the chapters of the textbook on modern architecture.  I have already started with Chapters 7 and 11.  7...How to build one bunkerless hole per course and 11..The driveable short par 4.

[John Kavanaugh]

But, there are courses out there with 5 or 6 bunkerless holes, and some of the bunkered holes have only fairway bunkers with no greenside bunkers, or greenside bunkers with no fairway bunkers.

Hold it...Please name a top 100 modern course with 5 or 6 bunkerless holes.

[Joe Hancock]

Chapter 1: Changing loam into sand with mere words

[John Kavanaugh]

Joe,

I just took a tour and see that the 12th at Kingsley is bunkerless...Congrats.  I am curious about the 7th because the bunkering looks to be anti-textbook...please explain.

[Joe Hancock]

But, there are courses out there with 5 or 6 bunkerless holes, and some of the bunkered holes have only fairway bunkers with no greenside bunkers, or greenside bunkers with no fairway bunkers.

Hold it...Please name a top 100 modern course with 5 or 6 bunkerless holes.

The Mines GC- Top 10 under $75, Golf Digest

[Joe Hancock]

Joe,

I just took a tour and see that the 12th at Kingsley is bunkerless...Congrats.  I am curious about the 7th because the bunkering looks to be anti-textbook...please explain.

Damn, I forgot about 12...I was thinking Kingsley met the bunkerless and unreachable par 4 requirements...for me, at least

[John Kavanaugh]

But, there are courses out there with 5 or 6 bunkerless holes, and some of the bunkered holes have only fairway bunkers with no greenside bunkers, or greenside bunkers with no fairway bunkers.

Hold it...Please name a top 100 modern course with 5 or 6 bunkerless holes.

The Mines GC- Top 10 under $75, Golf Digest

Nice call...My favorite bunker scheme is the 9th.  It appears to be so symetrically bunkered that it is devoid of blanket strategy.  It must change everyday given the location of the pin...genius.

What is the backstory on the lack of bunkers?

[Joe Hancock]

What is the backstory on the lack of bunkers?

A combination of interesting topography and being able to shape greens with an ideal green speed of 9 to 9.5 led to many bunker(less) decisions. The original drawing as submitted to the client showed more bunkers than were actually built...not a lot more, but more.

You have an open invitation for a guided tour any time. In fact, in you want to show up Monday, I may be able to bless you with the company of a Waffle House original.....

[John Kavanaugh]

What is the backstory on the lack of bunkers?

A combination of interesting topography and being able to shape greens with an ideal green speed of 9 to 9.5 led to many bunker(less) decisions. The original drawing as submitted to the client showed more bunkers than were actually built...not a lot more, but more.

You have an open invitation for a guided tour any time. In fact, in you want to show up Monday, I may be able to bless you with the company of a Waffle House original.....

Thank you as I am suddenly marginally interested...even more than when Golfweek wrote the Dungeons and Dragons review.

[paul cowley]

"Textbook architecture...What is it and why does it need to go?"

John....I am not aware of any single or group of books that  espouse enough similar philosophy's that they could be called textbooks. The more I think about it, the more divergent this design business seems.

So....before we let it go, lets at least try to define what it is [or isn't].

I might want to be able to acquire a copy or two.

[TEPaul]

John Kavanaugh:

As usual you seem to be all over the place which would suggest you're either a complete idiot or a complete genius.

If you really question textbook architecture that would suggest you're a big fan of Bill Coore who has gone beyond strategy and into "randomness".

Did you know, John, that "nature" is "random"?  

That's probably something of a rhetorical question on my part because I understand you are quite a "religous" man.  

[TEPaul]

"Am I the only one sick of left fairway bunker right greenside bunker design?"

PaulC:

This is just JohnK's way of saying he doesn't like or understand Max Behr's philosophy of "indirect tax" in golf course architecture.

John probably thinks the only example of "indirect tax" in this country is that the US Government doesn't fully inform its citizenry who have any dough that it can avoid estate taxation in some circumstances.  

By the way, are you planning on coming up anywhere near the Mason Dixon Line at the beginning of the coming week?

[John Kavanaugh]

great thread, John!!!!!

Thanks Paul, I just can't believe I already know the indirect tax theory of architecture without having ever heard of it.  I'm not sure if reading is the problem I thought it was.

[John Kavanaugh]

ditto!!!!!

Shivas,

Are you drunk cause you are posting exactly like an idiot.

[Jeff_Brauer]

John,

Actually, Pete Dye and others (mostly his proteges) have written about guarding the inside of a gentle dogleg twice, rather than alternating the bunkers to challenge the better player twice.

In my mind, the inside-inside bunker pattern (different from the GA book theory) is best reserved for the long par 4 holes, to make them play longer.  For that matter, on crosswind holes, bunkering the same side seems to often make sense.

The inside-outside "textbook" pattern works best on downwind holes, where reduced spin might actually make the frontal opening imortant to the better players.

When we were doing Colbert Hills, Jim and I had a lot of discussions about the strategy of playing for a frontal opening.  Basically, if you tee up near OB and play away, why wouldn't you play to the side of the fw where the greenside bunker is, so you could aim away from it more, and bring it gently back?  As Jim says, "Its not like I am hitting ground balls in there......"

[Mike Nuzzo]

John,
My project has 3 bunkerless holes and two holes that share 1 bunker.  You won't find these on line (I drew bunkers on every hole originally) you'll have to see for yourself to get interested.

4-6 short 4s too - the wind will dictate which ones are drivable....

[John Kavanaugh]

John,
My project has 3 bunkerless holes and two holes that share 1 bunker.  You won't find these on line (I drew bunkers on every hole originally) you'll have to see for yourself to get interested.

4-6 short 4s too - the wind will dictate which ones are drivable....

Have you managed to get a damn thing done this year with all the rain down there?  I could see me there when you get done.  Let me know.

[TEPaul]

JohnK:

I'm very sorry I mentioned the "indirect tax" philosophy on here. And I'm even more sorry you responded. That remark was intended for the macro-economic website I'm also addicted to.

[Tags:]

Tags:

[Tags:]

Tags:

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()