[Mike_Cirba]

I'm sitting here in steamy south Florida having just played Emerald Dunes (Tom Fazio - shaping and framing and strategically challenging  ), West Palm Beach (Dick Wilson - one of his first is fun and very playable), and Boca Rio (Robert Von Hagge's artistic hidden gem profiled on this site).  

I'd be happy to discuss any of the listed courses further if anyone wants my impressions, but the one thing that occurred to me over the weekend is the significant difference in the grasses from what someone who grew up on bent in the northeast is used to.

I particularly find this true on the greens.  I would argue that bent grass putting is easier, despite the higher speeds one is generally able to attain with bent.  In many cases, bent has become so true and grain-free that all one needs to do is to get the putt started on the correct line and it generally holds that line.

Not so with Bermuda.  Grain is a major factor, and the combination of slope and grain seem to accentuate each other more than is visually perceptive.  

Short putts are where the difference is most noticeable.  A poorly struck or half-hearted effort on Bermuda will almost never find the cup.  I also found that those putts that don't find the exact center of the hole almost never seem to fall from the sides on Bermuda, but are apt to spin away.  Being firm and decisive seems to be the key, but it's tough mentally to tell yourself to hit putts inside of 5 feet with gusto, having come from the speedy bent greens in the northeast summer drought.

I'm sure that there is some local knowledge at play here, and making the necessary adjustments would pay dividends over time, but I still imagine that day in and out, Bermuda greens have more variables to consider, and are effectively more difficult.

I'm wondering if others here have experienced the same, and reached the same conclusions.    

[John Bernhardt]

Mike, there is no question that burmuda is not as consistent or as easy to work with for chipping or putting than bent. If it makes you feel better the same thing happens to me the first few days on the west coast. The grass seems so sticky to me until I get used to it. There have been dramatic improvements in burmuda strains the last 5 years. They have improved year round speeds but I have not found they get rid of the grain yet though. It seems to be a problem no matter how much you verticut. It would be easier to give you more feedback on this if my home course super would try having one or two honest moments a month. This weeks is the growing season ends August 15th in south Louisiana lol lol. Try October 15th
 at the earliest.  I am not sure of the which burmuda you are playing on. I was at Emerald Dunes in November when almost all burmuda is great in that part of the world. This is another post but I found with the exception of Jupitor Hills and Seminole the golf in that area overpriced in a big way and the quality of course very average. In fact it really is not even close to as good as we have on the gulf coast at 1/4 to 1/3 the price.

[Ed_Baker]

Mike,

I would agree that bermuda is more difficult especially if you are used to bent.

I used to play 30 to 40 rounds a year in Florida in the winter months and I would have to "train" myself to adopt the "florida pop" putting stroke every year, which is more of a "hit" than a stroke. I found on putts of 6 to 8 feet that they simply had no chance if they didn't have enough velocity to roll 2 1/2 feet by on misses. The danger of course, is not reading the grain correctly and blasting it 10 feet by when downgrain!

Chips and pitches needed adjusting as well. On bent, you want to chip with the least lofted club possible and get the ball on the green and rolling as soon as possible. With bermuda, I found it much more effective to use a lofted club and fly the chip closer to the hole because generally it would stop much quicker and negate the grain to some degree.

I always marvel at just how good the tour guys are at jumping of an airplane and adjusting their games to the greens.

[John_Conley]

Having played for 15 years in Minnesota and 10 in Florida, I do feel qualified to answer.

I can make a lot more putts outside of 10 feet on Bent, but will also three putt more often on undulating greens because it is more difficult to get the ball to come to rest near the hole.

It is nearly impossible to three putt on Bermuda if you are comfortable with the green speed.  Anything inside of 4 feet is usually a gimme for a good putter becuase you can ram them straight in.

Grain is vastly overrated.  Pace will keep your putt online.  I don't know anyone who putts better than I do and I never read grain in Florida.  Mainly because it usually runs downhill making anything uphill deathly slow.

The new ultradwarfs help a lot and do putt nice in the AM.  By the time the PM rolls around, any Bermuda strain is starting to get chewy.

[Mike_Cirba]

Perhaps the fact that I'm a "speed putter" who dies the ball at the hole has a lot to do with it?

John; you realize that the Golf Gods are not going to be at all pleased with your "nearly impossible to three putt" statement.  I suggest you go right out there this second and three putt the first green you see to placate them and get it out of your system!

[GeoffreyC]

Except for that 3-putt stuff I agree with John Conley. The difficulty I find with burmuda (I call it a noxious weed) is around the green with chipping and pitching.  Its dramatically more difficult for me to get the club through the ball.  In addition, virtually every shot must land on the green or fringe or the bounce (if any) is unpredictable.

[Markep]

Overall, I believe that bent greens are tougher due to their normally faster surface. The increased speed means that missing the green on the "short-side" will frequently result in a shot that is almost impossible to stop within 15 feet of the hole; bermuda greens usually don't dictate as severe a penalty in that situation.

For putting, I always have a bit of a tough time making the transition to bermuda from bent. For my stroke, I actually have to change the loft angle at which I strike the ball. On bent, I like to use a forward press and de-loft the putter a bit when I strike the putt. If I use that technique on bermuda, my putts tend to bounce and skid , hence no forward press for me there. Once I adjust my technique as appropriate, I find that I make more long putts on bent, but more 6-15 footers on bermuda, as well as fewer 3 putts on bermuda.

[Matt_Ward]

Mike:

Let me answer it this way -- as far as rough is concerned the more difficult is Bermuda. If you had four inches of Bermuda rough you'd be lucky to find the ball. The ball sinks in Bermuda faster than the Titanic!

In most cases -- you're lucky to advance the ball out with a PW or SW.

In the area of putting the more consistent surface is without question bent. As an unrelated topic it is difficult to get any type of ground game performance when Bermuda is in bloom. The ball bounces usually once and then stops. When Bermuda is dormant in the winter you'll get plenty more yards. Play a Florida course in July versus January and you can see mucho difference in terms of club selection.

[John_Conley]

Mike:

If you are comfortable with the speed (usually slow) of Bermuda, it is very hard to three putt.  Most people never get adjusted to the slow and chewy surface.  If you are not trying to hit the ball 2' past the hole it will get spat out as it slows.  No way to hold the line.  Pace is the great equalizer.

Contrast this with Bent, where even the best putters in the world can hit the ball into a place where they can't rely on a two putt because they are above the hole.

Let me play every day for a week in Florida and I'll get around without three putting.  (Total fantasy, I play once a week.)  Let me play every day for a month in Minnesota and I'll three putt when I can't get my first putt within 8' because of the pace on a runaway hill.

Two years ago I had the best putting summer I've ever had.  My friends were amazed.  It became much easier when I knew I'd make any 3' putt coming back because I could afford to hit the first putt hard enough.  When in Florida, always try to hit the back of the cup.  You'll be surprised at how far the ball DOESN'T go by on your misses.  When a ball loses pace on Bermuda it stops in a hurry.

[Mike_Cirba]

Matt;

You raise a great point about distances.  Without fail, the courses played rather long, with perhaps Boca Rio the firmest.  Emerald Dunes was a bog, with TOTAL aerial game required (ball marks in every fairway from the tee shot) and absolutely no roll whatsoever.  I somewhat understand the need to keep things green in the summer, but I thought that was the reason for Bermuda in the first place.  

West Palm Beach was a bit better in that regard, and Boca Rio was superbly maintained, although not exactly what I'd call firm and fast.  I'm sure each is better when it isn't their "off-season", but I played them all back and wore out my long-irons.  

[Doug Wright]

Mike C,

I'm with you on this, probably because I tend to putt the way you do (die it at the hole) and I play almost all my rounds on bent. When I get on bermuda, I have trouble adjusting, which as others have mentioned seems critical. The other thing I have trouble with on bermuda is reading the greens. In my experience, the grain has a big impact on break and pace and you need to have both working to make a lot of putts. Unlike bent, what you see is not what you get on bermuda, as the grain invisibly adds or subtracts from both break and pace.

All the Best,

[Scott_Burroughs]

Mike,

You mention the courses being soggy in the summer.  Unless they purosefully over-water, it's probably from the ever-present afternoon thunderstorms that hit Florida almost every day in the summer.

Here in North Carolina, Bermuda is on basically every course as well, but we're in the midst of a long drought, meaning our Bermuda fairways have been nice and firm all year long.  This winter was unusually dry, and the conditions were ideal.  I've done more bumping-and-running on my course this past year than ever.  Normally can't do it with the usually soft green approaches.

[Lou_Duran]

I learned to putt on bent, though I've lived most of my golfing life in an area where bermuda is more common.  Holding everything else equal, bent grass is a superior surface to putt on, and easier for the accomplished player.  I do believe that bermuda is an easier grass for the average putter because lower average speeds don't require as much sensitivity.  Most good bermuda putters pop or punch the ball.  The best bent putters I've seen have a smoother, more rythmic stroke.  Personally, I make more putts of most lengths on bent, but three-putt less often on bermuda.

As others have pointed out, even with aggressive maintenance practices on the new strains (e.g. TiffEagle, Champion), you can never get the grain totally out of bermuda.  Some folks believe that grain adds interest to the greens, and that an insightful architect can use it to his advantage.  I think that there are sufficient variables in nature and in golf that worrying about which way the grass grows is more than I can handle.  I much prefer enduring three months of heat-stressed bent greens than six months of transition for bermuda, and the problem with grain during the growing seaon.

[Don_Mahaffey]

I've maintained both and played a lot of golf on both and I like bent a lot more. Nothing is more frustrating then hitting a good putt and watching it hop off line, seldom happens on a decent bent green, common occurance on bermuda greens. I think its easier to hit chips and short approaches to bermuda greens because I can almost always get the ball to bite in a predictable manner. With bent, sometimes I have a problem using spin to get a shot close. For me, it's bent all the way, and if a course is in an area where you can grow both, I'm always voting for bent.

[Andy Hodson]

John

I have played my whole life on Bermuda greens, so it is surprising to hear you say grain is overrated. You state no one putts better than you, so I would assume that being a great putter of Bermuda greens, you must read grain. It is what makes a great putter of Bermuda, IMO. Not only is it not overrated, it is fundamental when putting in the South.

And as far as speed goes, and your idea that it is hard to 3 putt bermuda, try a downhill, downgrain bermuda green. I guarantee that baby is going 8 feet past if it doesn't hit the hole. Could some of your experience with the ball finishing near the hole (no matter the grain) be more due to the topography of Florida?

And its funny but I would much rather have a 6 footer on bent than a 4 footer on bermuda. Bent, you just have to read the line and get it on line. Bermuda, you got to read the line and then figure out what the grain is going to do to it.

Or at least I do.

[stevencollins]

I find this thread very interesting.  I think which surface you find more difficult has a lot to do with what you grew up playing with.  And the style of putting stroke you use.  To explain, I refer to the putting strokes today compared to about thirty or more years ago.  Back when Bermuda was far more common on the tough courses, i.e., Augusta when it had it, you saw players use a lot more wrist and "pop" the ball.  I'm thinking Palmer, Jones, etc.  Then, as Bent became more and more popular, you began to see its smoother and faster surface demand a more rhythmic stroke and the "pendulum" style of Deane Beaman and Billy Casper became more and more popular.  Today, that's all most pros use.  I grew up on bent greens and watching pros use the pendulum approach to putting, perhaps most famously demonstrated by Mickelson.  With this background and stroke, I find putting on Bermuda to be very challenging because I can't get as much of a feel for the speed of the green, especially on longer putts.  Bermuda has grain play a much larger role; Bent demands a keen eye on line.

What I haven't heard anyone discuss, however, is another strain I've found more devilish than the other two: Poa Annoa.
Playing golf in California has caused me more lost putts than I can think of.

steve

[Tags:]

Tags:

[Tags:]

Tags:

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()