[Tommy Williamsen]

There is this miniature golf course near where I live.  Everyone under the age of ten loves it.

[Jim Nugent]

I hear big outpourings of love for Wild Horse here.  

[Tom Roewer]

I've never read a bad word written or said about Peter Jans Comm. G.C.  Brilliant Bendelow routing, great walkability, scenic vistas, affordability, and ambidexterity.  What else could one want.

[paul cowley]

Just to set the record straight.....

Tom

I never pooh-pooh'ed Cypress.  I've always said it is one of the  very few 3*** courses in the world.  I think and have always thought that 1, 17 and 18 are flawed.  The other 15 are world class, even 16, where you continue to miss the irony of my asessment which is, in effect, "Driver, putt, putt--what's the big deal," but then the tragic flaw of the Jesuits is that they have never understood irony.

John

I quit the board once about 5 years ago, before you discovered this board or even asphaltic concrete.  My last sabbatical resulted from my being 86'ed and once they figured out the error of their ways, the package they gave me only started with the Feature Interview #3.  Suffice it to say that I will never have to buy another golf tee in my life.

Rich

As for the question, all but one or two of the annointed courses (not Cypress of NGLA, Huck!) have (slightly) disappointed me.  Most have lived up to or exceeded the hype.  The one that blew me away the most was Pebble Beach in 1976.  It was (and still is in my memory, at least) almost on another planet.

RFG

Rich....if you last played PB in '76, then you playing it at its zenith....its been all steadily downhill since then...IMO.

[Jon Spaulding]

I've heard the fewest negatives about SFGC on this thread or in my own mind......less so than CPC.

In general, people are rarely 100% satisfied with anything; for different reasons. The same rule seems to apply to evaluations of fine courses....which help makes the topic perpetually interesting.  

[Bill_McBride]

I bet there are people who don't like Sand Hills.  I know there are people who don't think Shinnecock is the best classic course - hell I'm one of them.  Close, but not the best.  I also have a few friends who weren't too impressed with Pacific Dunes.

So... I think the answer to the topic is NONE.  I have a hard time believing in 100% opinions on anything.

To go along the lines of Hucks, opinions are like....well, you know the rest.


I haven't played an incredible array of courses, so my opinions wouldn't have much weight. Very few people can make this sort of assesment unless they have played virtually ALL of the greats. I know of very few that have done this. Now, if I go by what I hear, I hear very few (in fact none) detractors of Merion, Pine Valley or Shinnecock in terms of classics. I would throw Riviera in there as well, Fazio redo not withstanding. There are lots of greats, but as Phil mentioned, there is one reason or another for someone to say, "yes it's great, but...". I think there are others that qualify under the classic category, but don't have the major championship history, such as Valley Club, that I have RARELY heard a disparaging word said about them.


As far as Moderns, Sand Hills leaps to mind along with Friars Head. Ballyneal is another. While they are very young, I have NEVER heard ONE negative thing spoken about any of them.

Actually there is quite a bit of negative comment on Friars Head, mostly concerning the holes down in the flat area of the 'potato field' which some find pedestrian compared to the higher up holes in the dunes.  But when you look hard at those lower holes, they are beautifully designed and it makes for one of those wonderful in and out of different environment courses that are so much fun to play.  And the transitional par 5s (#2, #7, #11 and #14) that take you first down and then up - like escalators!   - make it all work.  

So there is some negative vibe on Friars Head, but in my personal opinion it's bunk.  Great course, fun walk.

[Doug Bolls]

My observation over the last couple of years is that Lawsonia Links is part of the Holy Grail on this site.  I don't think I've ever seen anyone say anything critical of it and it seems to be fairly high on the list of favorites GCA favorites.

[David Stamm]

I've heard the fewest negatives about SFGC on this thread or in my own mind......less so than CPC.

I think that may have to do with the fact that so few have played it in comparison to CPC. At least it seems that way.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Jon and David hit it best here.

Tom Huckaby,
Rarely do I say anything about Friar's Head on this website other then when someone says something inaccurate about the place, where someone misses with a critique simply because they didn't get it; Didn't understand it, or by way of insanity, felt they needed  to push the course down because of the so-called favored nations status. (I feel that term is nothing more then a jealous put-down by those who cannot fathom the work of true artists)

With that, I will debate with anyone the merits of that course simply because I find it to be of a quality and substance--an upper-echelon if-you-will that will someday place it in ranks of the most esteemed in the Sport.

Because this place is a extremely exclusive private club and those that are fortunate enough to experience it, I will call upon those who can put all personal bias aside and state their experiences with the architecture and not the personalities.

You have the floor......

[wsmorrison]

Of all the outstanding courses mentioned so far on this thread, not one that I know of can be improved upon as much as Shinnecock Hills.  So many potential pin positions and resulting strategic intent have been compromised over the years as a result of lost green space that many who return to Shinnecock Hills over the next few years will be amazed at how much better the course will be as the green expansion continues to its conclusion with a few greens restored each year.

Take a look at an aerial photograph of Shinnecock Hills prior to the green expansion (Google Earth for instance) and look at the greens...they are all circular or slight ovals.  They were designed with complicated outlines with lobes extended to falloffs, short grass surrounds and tucked behind bunkers.  As great as the course is and as hard as it may be to believe, it will be even better.

[John Kirk]

Actually there is quite a bit of negative comment on Friars Head, mostly concerning the holes down in the flat area of the 'potato field' which some find pedestrian compared to the higher up holes in the dunes.  But when you look hard at those lower holes, they are beautifully designed and it makes for one of those wonderful in and out of different environment courses that are so much fun to play.  And the transitional par 5s (#2, #7, #11 and #14) that take you first down and then up - like escalators!   - make it all work.  

So there is some negative vibe on Friars Head, but in my personal opinion it's bunk.  Great course, fun walk.

I played it for a second time recently.  Bill is right on the money here.  My recent remarks weren't exactly negative.  What I said was the "potato field" holes are less visually compelling than some other great modern courses, but Friar's Head is the rare place where the total comfortably exceeds the sum of its parts.

Friar's Head is a wonderful place.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Funny, I never once thought of french fries or twice-cooked spuds during my special times there!

Any, and I mean ANY negative comments on the southern most holes is pure nit-picking, if not down-right snobbery. They may contain some of the best golf out there, including the 5th, which may one day be in a Riviera #10 "class" of golf holes.

Sure, there will always be a negative comment on the one-shot 4th or the 12th. To me its a gem of a green that really grows on you. It will bite you in the ass if your not careful. I've always felt that it may be the toughest of the one-shot holes out there.

The 12th, well, it's another golf hole which if you don't understand the wind with that green, your going to walk away with a higher score then anticipated. Somebody here (Mike Cirba. Ed Getka) once claimed that there wasn't much interest in the golf hole. Well, to me it's a hole I rarely walk to the tee not worrying about something, whether it be wind or not enough club or shoddy putting. It's another magnificently shaped and subtle green with two bunkers on each side of it screaming 'FEED ME!' (one short left of the green, the other green high, right) Wind and wind direction is such a factor on the hole......Especially if it's being played in inclement weather.

[Phil McDade]

My observation over the last couple of years is that Lawsonia Links is part of the Holy Grail on this site.  I don't think I've ever seen anyone say anything critical of it and it seems to be fairly high on the list of favorites GCA favorites.

Doug:

On this site, I'd agree. Among non-GCA nuts, I've golfed with plenty of folks who simply view Laswsonia's pushed-up greens, lack of trees, gaping bunkers, blind and semi-blind shots, and extraordinary sloping greens with a sense of bemusement. They think of it as...odd, and prefer the next-door Woodlands course.

[Sean Leary]

North Berwick.  Just plain fun for all......

[Tom Huckaby]

Jon and David hit it best here.

Tom Huckaby,
Rarely do I say anything about Friar's Head on this website other then when someone says something inaccurate about the place, where someone misses with a critique simply because they didn't get it; Didn't understand it, or by way of insanity, felt they needed  to push the course down because of the so-called favored nations status. (I feel that term is nothing more then a jealous put-down by those who cannot fathom the work of true artists)

With that, I will debate with anyone the merits of that course simply because I find it to be of a quality and substance--an upper-echelon if-you-will that will someday place it in ranks of the most esteemed in the Sport.

Because this place is a extremely exclusive private club and those that are fortunate enough to experience it, I will call upon those who can put all personal bias aside and state their experiences with the architecture and not the personalities.

You have the floor......

Tommy, this is great - but why is it addressed to me?  All I did on this thread was mention that there really are no courses that EVERYONE loves, given we always tend to have some contrarians.  I also didn't say a word about Friar's Head.

So the floor remains yours... I have no axe to grind here...

 

[Tommy_Naccarato]

   Re:Courses Everyone Loves
« Reply #8 on: August 24, 2007, 12:04:34 pm »    Reply with quote
David:  I've read negative words about each of Friar's Head and Ballyneal in here - no way are those universally beloved.

Just responding to the key words Tom. No way seems like a couple of words to me.

[Tom Huckaby]

Tommy:

Aha.  Well, I'll stand by those words.  Heck I've never been there so I have NO WAY of knowing one way or another what the course is like.  But just look at this thread... there's at least one person here who didn't rave about it.  Others have said other negative words fairly openly - usually about the potato field holes, or something to the effect that "it's not all that" or something.

In any case it's not my fight, about this or any other course specifically.  There have just been a lot of absolutes stated in here lately, and my only point is that absolutes tend to be absolutely wrong.

 

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Tom,
Other then some negative comment on the two par 3 holes that I mentioned, which was questionable since one of the critiques was done after a 5 1/2 hour red eye plane flight 18 holes at Tall Grass then a 18 hole walking tour of Sebonack then 18 walking holes at Friar's Head and the other critique--in a rain storm, I have never seen anyone state any negativity on the so-called potato field holes. (which you can't even tell it was once a potato field because the quality of shaping and earth movement by C&C& Co. is just so good)

Tom, Making a statement like yours on a course you have never seen....... Well, I find it sort of bold.

[Tom Huckaby]

Tom,
Other then some negative comment on the two par 3 holes that I mentioned, which was questionable since one of the critiques was done after a 5 1/2 hour red eye plane flight 18 holes at Tall Grass then a 18 hole walking tour of Sebonack then 18 walking holes at Friar's Head and the other critique--in a rain storm, I have never seen anyone state any negativity on the so-called potato field holes. (which you can't even tell it was once a potato field because the quality of shaping and earth movement by C&C& Co. is just so good)

Tom, Making a statement like yours on a course you have never seen....... Well, I find it sort of bold.

Tommy:  please understand that I am commenting on the commentary, not the golf course.  I sure as hell didn't mean to be bold.  You'll note I mentioned several other courses in my posts here - Sand Hills, Cypress Point, Shinnecock... and I do firmly believe that not EVERYONE loves those either.  There are always going to be people who see things differently.

And I do recall reading - or hearing - negative words about each one of those.

I just don't think there is ANY golf course that EVERYONE loves, and that's my point.  This is not meant to be an indictment of any golf course and sure as hell is not meant to be anything against Friar's Head.

TH

ps - Bill McBride seems to have the same recollection I do... why not get on him about this?  

[Craig Van Egmond]

Sir Thomas of Huckaby,

       Why?  Because you are so much more fun to give crap to than Bill is.

       But in this instance I gotta agree with you, there is no course built today that EVERYONE on GCA would love, every course has its detractors. This includes Pac Dunes, Cypress Point, Augusta, The Old Course, Sand Hills, NGLA, Shinnecock and so on.

      I hear C&C might even have some courses that aren't great.  

[Tom Huckaby]

Sir Thomas of Huckaby,

       Why?  Because you are so much more fun to give crap to than Bill is.

       But in this instance I gotta agree with you, there is no course built today that EVERYONE on GCA would love, every course has its detractors. This includes Pac Dunes, Cypress Point, Augusta, The Old Course, Sand Hills, NGLA, Shinnecock and so on.

      I hear C&C might even have some courses that aren't great.  

Understood completely... and well said, my friend.

 

[Phil Benedict]

It just seems to me that Shinnecock and Sand Hills have the fewest detractors here.  This is not based on a deconstruction of every post I've seen about these courses.  Even during the course of this thread no one has posted on what they don't like about Shinnecock and Sand Hills, just that they assume they have their detractors.

Again, if I just arrived from Mars and only had this web site to determine the best golf courses, I would likely conclude they are Shinnecock and Sand Hills.

[corey miller]

Friar's Head is an interesting answer as for me it is imperative to play the course, especially when making a comparison between the dunes and fields holes.

IMO the potato holes "play a lot better than they look" and the dunes holes might actually "look better than they play"...Most look at the wild terrain of the dunes holes and assume it produced the better golf holes on the property.

I have not heard much criticism of the course and assume it comes from folks that were looking to make it a top 10 in country course prior to even playing the course.

[Brian Cenci]

My observation over the last couple of years is that Lawsonia Links is part of the Holy Grail on this site.  I don't think I've ever seen anyone say anything critical of it and it seems to be fairly high on the list of favorites GCA favorites.

Doug,
    I've posted several things about this course...to sum them up, I'm not a fan.  Don't see why everyone on this site loves it so much.

-Brian

[Brian Cenci]

I haven't really read a bad review on Crystal Downs.  Someone earlier said that it was too short for the modern game.  Don't understand that comment.  As far as length goes I think it plays 7000+ (even though it is listed at a little over 6500+).  To me it plays very very very long compared to its yardage and I think all would agree on that.  Especially if they've every played it with wind.

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