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Chris Cupit

  • Karma: +0/-0
Echelon/Ga. Tech Club in Atlanta
« on: August 24, 2007, 10:48:05 PM »
OK, it's not in Atlanta.  Assuming you can follow the bread crumbs correctly from the Atlanta airport you could get to this northside golf course in 1 1/2 hours or 2 1/2 hours depending on traffic!

Anyway this Rees Jones course is the latest multi million dollar, ultra high end development north of Atlanta along with Hawk's Ridge, Capital City Crabapple Course (not really a development course but a second 18 for a very well established old Atlanta club), The Manor, White Columns (about 10 years old or so now?), Crooked Creek and the older Atlanta National Golf Club.  All high end clubs asking $35,000 and up (except Crooked Creek).

I guess the main competitors are The Manor vs. The Echelon club as they are just a few miles apart, have IDs of $50,000 each and opened within a year or so of one another.  Lots in both easily command $1M and the homes are enormous.  Rumor was the house on the first hole at Echelon was between 11,000 and 19,000 sq. feet and had a price close to $5M.

The golf course does have some of the finest A-1 bent grass greens I have seen and even during the oppresively hot August with this record 100 year drought, the greens were perfect and rolled quite quickley--I'm guessing an 11 or so.

The course itself is decent enough on holes 1 through 8 but then I have to wonder what in the world anyone was trying to do by building a golf course on what one in my group desribed as "billy goat country".  This is the most severe up and down golf course I have ever seen and some of it really sucks.

Not being a designer I will admit that maybe this is the absolute best use of land if one "had" to build a golf course on it.  But as a golfer it was a joke.

Hole #9 began the mountainous trek.  Uphill par 4 all the way to a blind landing area and then a blind green--no part of the green or the greenside bunker are visible--you just see a flag.  I don't mind the occasional blind shot at all--just had my fill of this on #9-#18.  The 11 handicapper in my group was a good player but at 65 h wasn't a long hitter.  From the 6500 course this was one of several fairways he couldn't reach.  BTW, the course yardages were:  6000, 6500, 7000 and 7600.  We were in an event and had no choice of tees.

#10  Straight downhill par 4 to a shallow green protected by a large front bunker.  My drive on this 371 yard hole came within about two yards of being on the putting surface!  From 120 yards or so, none of my fellow golfers were able to hold the green from the severe downhill lies into this shallow target.  Long of course is dead.

#11  Our actual starting hole and one of my all time top ten worst par 5s.  From our 540 yard tees (Par 5s from the back had three of them over 600 yards and one that at 526 played about 590 but I'll describe that beauty later).

Anyway the drive requires a carry over an enormous ravine/ditch filled with native grasses.  Our 11 handicapper hit it as good as he could over the shortest carry and could not get over the ravine.  I'm guessing it was a carry of 190-200 yards.  

After a good drive of 275 or so you can now lay up with a 5 to 8 iron.  The ravine continues down the entire left side and crosses in front of the green forcing you to REALLY lay up.  By luck my lay up 6 iron stopped a yard from going too far and stayed in the fairway short of the ravine--I now had 130 yards to the green.  I assume most players would try and lay up to the 150 area--always fun to be forced to lay that far back on a really long par 5.  If you tried to carry the ravine the fairway just short of the green was 12-15 yards wide with ravine left and enormous hill on the right--not really an option.

Oh, this green sloped away from the players as well.  Most in my group of 5-11 handicppaers hit driver, 4 or 5 iron and then a 7 or 8iron.  Of course, our 11 could not finish.

#12  Straight uphill short par 4.  So uphill in fact that even from our 279 tees I couldn't get my best drive there (remember the downhill 10th at 371 left me within a couple of yards of that green).  Two large bunkers force most play out to the right which leaves, you guessed it, a completely blind shot at a flagstick.  After climbing the hill you find a three tiered green with a bunker front and right.

#13  Straight back down the hill.  A par 4 of 508 from the tips and 410 or so from where we played.  A ravine is off to the right and two bunkers guarded the left side of the fairway.  So downhill I played a 2 iron and wedge to the green.  2 of the guys hit drivers and watched for minutes as the balls hung in the air before fading into the ravine/hazard on the right.  I have no recollection of any feature on the green.

#14  From tee to green my best guess is that you climb at least 100 feet.  While waiting to hit second shots I noticed that all of else were leaning into the hill to keep our balance just standing in the fairway!  One player was a good skier who with absolutely no malice in his heart commented that it would be a nice ski run down the fairway!

Several tiers will built in the fairway to keep the balls from simply rolling all the way down the damn hill!  One player's second shot landed in the fairway, rolled to about 40 yads short of the green until it then rolled at least 40 yards back into a level spot in the fairway!  To be fair, the fairways were firm and fast thanks to the drought but this hole still sucked.

After slogging your way up the hill the green (blind) had a real cute false front that helped repel third shots as well back to your feet.  I felt like I was playing "King of the Hill" with a golf hole--not much fun.

#15  downhill par 3 that actually was one of the best holes on the course.  Back tees had it at 254 and thankfully our 185 tee played like 165.  A cool front fairway/bowl area encouraged a running approach and this was a fine golf hole with a gorgeous backdrop.

#16  Downhill again.  Right ravine, left fairway bunker (sound familiar) and a pretty bland green.

#17  the flattest hole on the course right by a main two lane road.  Again, a very solid hole and a welcome relief from the hills.

#18  Very uphill drive with a left fairway bunker and a ravine/hazard on the right (seriously :)).  Second shot from a severe lie is again uphill to a blind green.  You could see a flag but unlike some of the other uphill holes that hinted at a bunker up ahead due to the shaping (you could never see any sand), this big left bunker was a complete surprise!  Yes I was in it.  Literally none of us could tell if there was green 25 left, right, in front or behind on many greens including this one.  I suppose the more you play, you'd learn what to do and we could have driven up to every green and checked them out before playing but 5 hours was already enough time dedicated to this round :(

I simply don't get why you'd try and build a course like this.  I know it would be hard to say "no,no, no don't pay me whatever for building this hugely expensicve course for you" but if anyone could afford to say something like that you'd think it would be someone like a Rees Jones.  On the "level holes" there were some interesting shots--a neat par 4 on the front with some inside left bunkers and then a short pitch across a hazard was nice.  

Oh well, maybe I was expecting too much but it was a very dissapointing back nine :(

I am certain the development will do well.  The Melrose corporation does a very nice job, the staff was exceptionally courteous and the homes and amenities will be out of this world.  The course conditioning is nearly perfect but it's ironic and kinda sad that the weakest element in the whole project is the design of the course itself.  Again, maybe this was the best that could be done with the land but for a project like this why not keep looking for suitable property???

Mike_Cirba

Re:Echelon/Ga. Tech Club in Atlanta
« Reply #1 on: August 24, 2007, 10:52:03 PM »
Chris,

Doesn't it seem that more and more golf courses are being built on land that is very suspect as being golf-worthy in the first place?

Doesn't it also seem that they feature wonderful conditioning, wonderfully picturesque holes, and absolutely horrid golf?

I think I played the exact same course a few miles away from me in PA a few weeks back.

It made me wonder if the archie doesn't have some type of fiduciary responsibility to tell the landowners that the odds of building a really good, playable, enjoyable course is nil?

Instead, it seems that commerce almost always prevails, and the architect tells them something like, "This could be a Top 100 course!".   ::)

Chris Cupit

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Echelon/Ga. Tech Club in Atlanta
« Reply #2 on: August 24, 2007, 11:07:01 PM »
Mike,

I was nervous about even suggesting that an architect had an obligation or duty to turn down a job if he felt a project just wasn't "right".

I know this is a person's profession but I do think that the leaders in an industry do have some obligation to set an example and in the case of golf course architecture that may mean taking the lead in turning down sites that are not good course locations.

Now let me back up and say:

1.  Maybe Rees Jones felt this was very good land and this is a good golf course.
2.  Maybe he felt that as long as someone was going to build a course on this property no matter what, it may as well be him not just for the money but because he felt he could do the best with what land he was given.

I'd love to hear other opinions  as I guess I really am not sure what I think about that particular issue--I do recognize it's not as easy as just turning down work or telling a client to go spend millions on a better piece of land.

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Echelon/Ga. Tech Club in Atlanta
« Reply #3 on: August 25, 2007, 02:05:49 AM »
The course had to be great.
It had fast bent grass greens!

I'm just surprised there weren't 18 downhill holes ::)
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

A.G._Crockett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Echelon/Ga. Tech Club in Atlanta
« Reply #4 on: August 25, 2007, 06:27:40 AM »
Chris,
I haven't had the opportunity to play the course, but the holes that I have seen from driving by are some of the least appealing golf holes imaginable.  They don't look like much fun to ride, with walking out of the question.  What makes that so weird is that the GaTech golf team is supposed to use the course extensively.  Very hard to imagine college players driving out there from Tech, walking that sucker, and then driving back downtown on any kind of a regular basis.  But I'm sure that wasn't just real estate hype...

BTW, the only other person that I've talked to who has played the course could care less about GCA, AND is a huge Tech fan, and liked it less than you did!
« Last Edit: August 25, 2007, 06:37:38 AM by A.G._Crockett »
"Golf...is usually played with the outward appearance of great dignity.  It is, nevertheless, a game of considerable passion, either of the explosive type, or that which burns inwardly and sears the soul."      Bobby Jones

John_Cullum

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Echelon/Ga. Tech Club in Atlanta
« Reply #5 on: August 25, 2007, 08:21:42 AM »
Very hard to imagine college players driving out there from Tech, walking that sucker, and then driving back downtown on any kind of a regular basis.  

Apparently you are not familiar with the collegiate practice regimen.

Walking is not involved.

On a side note, the Director of Golf there is a friend and a great guy
"We finally beat Medicare. "

Chris Cupit

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Echelon/Ga. Tech Club in Atlanta
« Reply #6 on: August 25, 2007, 08:24:01 AM »
A.G.

It was a tough walk back to the cart on many holes!  Unwalkable?  Uh, yeah!

The hole you see from the road is either the par 3 17th, the par 4 18th or the VERY uphill par 5 14th.  I live nearby and have seen the holes a few times and all I can say is they play even more uphill than it looks like they would >:(


Chris Cupit

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Echelon/Ga. Tech Club in Atlanta
« Reply #7 on: August 25, 2007, 08:28:30 AM »
Very hard to imagine college players driving out there from Tech, walking that sucker, and then driving back downtown on any kind of a regular basis.  

Apparently you are not familiar with the collegiate practice regimen.

Walking is not involved.

On a side note, the Director of Golf there is a friend and a great guy

Craig is a great guy and his staff was excellent as well!

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Echelon/Ga. Tech Club in Atlanta
« Reply #8 on: August 25, 2007, 08:53:54 AM »
Chris,
OK...let me be a little bit of a Devil's advocate here.....top residential real estate either has mountain view, lake view, ocean view or a golf view.....when a developer gets a land with none of these features he puts in golf.....personally I like a lot of the RJ courses I have played...I understand where you are coming from on Echelon but I can't see where he had an obligation to tell them no.  WHY, because golf is not the main factor here...it was amenity to home sales.....maintaining the course is secondary as long as there are lots to sell....once that is done....things change....woods are full of them.....AND truth be known  98% of the people dont know if it is good or bad...just Rees built it and the greens are good......they will wear the shirt, car tag and auto decal proudly....
AND make sure people know GT doesnt really have much to do with the place....just sounds good.....
Tater Salad
« Last Edit: August 25, 2007, 08:54:32 AM by Mike_Young »
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Chris Cupit

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Echelon/Ga. Tech Club in Atlanta
« Reply #9 on: August 25, 2007, 09:34:21 AM »
 WHY, because golf is not the main factor here...it was amenity to home sales.....AND truth be known  98% of the people dont know if it is good or bad...just Rees built it and the greens are good......they will wear the shirt, car tag and auto decal proudly....
AND make sure people know GT doesnt really have much to do with the place....just sounds good.....
Tater Salad

Thanks for the input.  Your right about what the property is--I was just bummed and had higher expectations for the course itself.  How sad--GOLF IS NOT THE MAIN FACTOR HERE :( :(

I certainly don't claim to know or understand their business model but given the severity of the course and the competition around it, I am not sure people other than residents would consider joining.

Maybe the development alone can support the course but what a shame to have such a highly respected/famous architect and not have an outstanding layout.

BCrosby

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Echelon/Ga. Tech Club in Atlanta
« Reply #10 on: August 25, 2007, 10:10:45 AM »
Tater Salad is right.

With the exception of Crabapple, all of the new courses north of ATL are land sales deals. (Some successful, some not.) The quality of the golf course is secondary to the name of the architect. The Rees Jones name will sell lots. As Jeff W. puts it above, as long as the greens putt smoothly and look good, Rees has hit a home run.

I was going to add that the quality of the architecture on these kinds of development courses is largely irrelevant.

But that's not quite right. It is irrelevant to the developer - Rees's paymaster. The developer's goals are achieved by using Rees's reputation to make first sales. Then he his gone.

For the home buyer - a long term investor - the quality of the design DOES matter. He is going to want the value of his home to appreciate in the next decade or two. Houses on bad courses don't fetch as much on resales as houses on good courses.

The problem is that most of the first time buyers don't know how to weigh the gca part of their investment decision. So they'll go with the big name. In the case of the GT Club, my guess is that those guys are going to get burned down the road.  

Bob

Mike_Cirba

Re:Echelon/Ga. Tech Club in Atlanta
« Reply #11 on: August 25, 2007, 10:40:31 AM »
Bob/Tater,

I don't recall home sales at Barnsley Gardens.  ;)

BCrosby

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Echelon/Ga. Tech Club in Atlanta
« Reply #12 on: August 25, 2007, 11:10:15 AM »
Mike -

That's a gotcha only in a very technical sense. ;)

Barnsley shares with Lawsonia, Merion and Myopia that fact that they are all north of ATL.

But down here, "north of ATL" normally means the northern suburbs.

But hold the phone. Come to think of it, I like the idea of describing the locations of those courses as "north of ATL." It would go along way towards improving the city's reputation as a golf destination.

Helpfully,

Bob

Mike_Cirba

Re:Echelon/Ga. Tech Club in Atlanta
« Reply #13 on: August 25, 2007, 11:12:02 AM »
Bob,

To us Yankees, if it's still in the state, it's north of Atlanta.  ;)

A.G._Crockett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Echelon/Ga. Tech Club in Atlanta
« Reply #14 on: August 25, 2007, 12:42:59 PM »
John C.,
I know Craig as well, though only slightly.  He was very good and gracious to us when he was at Settindown and I was still coaching HS golf.  I hope the move goes well for him.

Mike C.,
That's exactly why most of us in the South consider YOU to be in the suburbs of NYC!
I think Barnsley would really be a resort course in a sense, though I have no idea what % of the rounds there are played by resort guests vs. daily fee.  But most of us even on the northside would consider it to be out of the metro area in terms of daily fee golf, with or without real estate.
"Golf...is usually played with the outward appearance of great dignity.  It is, nevertheless, a game of considerable passion, either of the explosive type, or that which burns inwardly and sears the soul."      Bobby Jones