[Mike_Cirba]

Doug/Brad,

I agree with Doug that the trees don't come into play much, but I'd also take down the trees along the creek that Doug mentioned on #6, because I think seeing the creek the whole way would be a much more interesting visual hazard, even though they are larger specimen-type trees.

I also would take down every crappy pine because they frankly don't have any place on a golf course.  Why don't they just dig little 10 foot x 10 foot ponds all over the place because the net result is the same?!  

I'm not talking about majestic Georgia Pines, mind you, where the branches start about 15-20 feet off the ground.   I'm talking about little "Christmas trees", with sap, and picky needles, and other crap like pine cones that serve no purpose but to litter the course and obstruct play.



All,

I would add that even though Scott started this thread, I'm sure he would agree that this is a "feel free to comment on pictures" thread.  We all have eyes..feel free to use them!  

If anyone starts to comment that you can't judge a course from pictures, or other such nonsense, I'll personally hunt them down and hit them with my abbreviated followthrough!    

[Doug Braunsdorf]

If anyone starts to comment that you can't judge a course from pictures, or other such nonsense, I'll personally hunt them down and hit them with my abbreviated followthrough!    

Mike,

  Not to punch holes in your nice comments, but I think, from experience, you must experience the hills on holes 2,7,9,10 firsthand; they really are much greater than they appear.  

Yes/No?

[Mike_Cirba]

Mike,

  Not to punch holes in your nice comments, but I think, from experience, you must experience the hills on holes 2,7,9,10 firsthand; they really are much greater than they appear.  

Yes/No?

Doug,

No question...like television, photographs tend to "flatten" things.

The hills on 2, 7, 9, and 10 are very significant, and the approach to 7 specifically is about a 3 club difference.

[Craig Disher]

Except for the overhanging trees to the right on #11, I didn't find them annoying until #13 and #14. Removing the line of trees behind the 15th green would give a spectacular view on the approach. But as Mike said, the fairways on most holes have plenty of space - although the pictures show a large number of small maples or oaks that have been planted recently. Not a good sign.

Doug,
2, 7, and 10 are very difficult holes, 10 especially.  We played 10 from the upper left tee and didn't walk down to the lower tee on the right. Have you played from there? It looks like it would be a blind drive up and over a nearly vertical cliff.

In the area between the 3rd and 4th tees (the holes play in opposite directions) I saw a small carved-out area to the left rear of the current 3rd tee. In front of the area was a deep depression directly in line with the 3rd green. I speculated that the carved-out area may have been the original 3rd tee with the hole playing as a very short par 4 with the option of playing either over the depression and having a very short approach to the green or playiing to the right of it along the line of the current hole. Has anyone noticed this or have any information about the original routing? Next time I'm at the Archives, I'll see if there's a 30s era aerial - although the feature may have been gone by then. If the tee was there, it was definitely in a risky spot, just to the left of the 2nd fairway.

Sal's was good and I wasn't hungry until around noon the next day.

[paul cowley]

Discovering Leatherstocking while in my teens was the most influential experience that formed my desire to become a golf course designer.

I grew up one hour to the east on Muni courses, which were also extremely formative.....but I had nothing to contrast that experience with until I played Leatherstocking.

Its my favorite halcyon course.

Paul,

Please do tell more.  What were the things you saw at Leatherstocking that formed your interest in architecture?

Mike....my entry into golf was a little odd. From the age of 12 thru my teens I worked after school, weekends and summers in plant nurseries or landscape construction. When it was too rainy to work an older employee introduced me to golfing in the rain and I began to look forward to these rain day sessions. The course was a short collection of 27 holes built by a local farmer [Western Turnpike CC]....bare bones and many of the par fours were just under 300 yds. Actually the course was a good place to learn if you had no preconceptions of what constitutes good design.....and I had none. On occasion my father would take me out to a NLE nine hole course in Sharon Springs [but only when it wasn't raining]. The course was probably layed out by a person of some ability, and it was exciting for me to start analyzing elements of the design....basically what I liked and how it got the way it did.

When I was about 15 my father took me to Cooperstown to play golf. I had previously only visited the two museums in town.

After going through the locker room, and standing on the first tee, I knew I was about to experience something very different.

And I did.....by the time I encountered my first cross bunkers at #5, my mind was swimming.....then going across the road....and then the finishing holes.....I was mesmerized, and in love with the place and setting.

I still go back whenever I can.....I have even earned enough to stay at the Hotel on occasion, and I no longer have to play in the rain [which I miss when I think back about it, but Thomas Wolf has a phrase that addresses that].

Its quite possibly the course I would pick if I had to choose only one to play for the rest of my life [excluding 2 or 3 of my own].

Thanks for posting the photos Gents.


 

[Doug Braunsdorf]

Except for the overhanging trees to the right on #11, I didn't find them annoying until #13 and #14. Removing the line of trees behind the 15th green would give a spectacular view on the approach. But as Mike said, the fairways on most holes have plenty of space - although the pictures show a large number of small maples or oaks that have been planted recently. Not a good sign.

Doug,
2, 7, and 10 are very difficult holes, 10 especially.  We played 10 from the upper left tee and didn't walk down to the lower tee on the right. Have you played from there? It looks like it would be a blind drive up and over a nearly vertical cliff.

In the area between the 3rd and 4th tees (the holes play in opposite directions) I saw a small carved-out area to the left rear of the current 3rd tee. In front of the area was a deep depression directly in line with the 3rd green. I speculated that the carved-out area may have been the original 3rd tee with the hole playing as a very short par 4 with the option of playing either over the depression and having a very short approach to the green or playiing to the right of it along the line of the current hole. Has anyone noticed this or have any information about the original routing? Next time I'm at the Archives, I'll see if there's a 30s era aerial - although the feature may have been gone by then. If the tee was there, it was definitely in a risky spot, just to the left of the 2nd fairway.

Sal's was good and I wasn't hungry until around noon the next day.

Craig-

  I played from the left tee on 10--the upper one--and blocked it down the hill.  Fortunately, the wet rough caught it from going OB.  Pitched up and on, made five.  Wayne hit a drive from the bottom tee, he may have played the hole from here, can't remember exactly.  Getting old

You know, do you remember the waste area to the left of 4 tee?  Did you notice that indentation in the mounds?  We looked at it, but, for the life of me, I couldn't figure out why it was there.  It seemed very insignificant as a feature--because, if you went right through it, as I remember,  you would end up down on 2 fairway somewhere.  Is this what you're referring to?  

[Craig Disher]

Doug,
I'm not sure. I remember walking from the 3rd green to the 4th tee and seeing some very rough ground on the left - which I described as the depression in front of the possible original 3rd tee.

Here's a 1928 photo from the 3rd tee. The topography from there is quite different than from the current tee and does resemble what I remember from looking at the carved-out area to the left rear of the 2nd green. An early scorecard would be helpful.

It appears that the 3rd green would be over the hill behind the tree on the left.

[wsmorrison]

Sean,

It is a resort course associated with the Hotel Otesaga, a very nice grand hotel along the lake.  It is a hotel and course well worth visiting, even if you're not interested in the National Baseball Hall of Fame.  However, anyone that loves baseball should visit Cooperstown and there's lots to do if you don't.

[paul cowley]

Sean....Google Otesaga Hotel.

Cooperstown is a gem of its own. The town sits on one of the Finger Lakes in that region of Central NY....the Baseball Hall of Fame is there as well.

The nearby Farmers Museum is very good too....and its right across the street from the Leatherstocking Course [you can see part of it in the background of the photo of #12....an old historic stone barn].

[Mike_Cirba]

Sean,

If you don't like Leatherstocking I'd be shocked.

I think it's time to reiterate the fact that this course was built in 1909, the same year NGLA was coming into reality.

Wasn't American architecture supposed to be a geometric, artificial wasteland at that time?   Isn't the commonly accepted notion that Macdonald pulled us collectively from that morass with his example in Southampton.

I find it ironic that Emmett built the original Garden City (basically today's routing) 10 years earlier.    I find it even more ironic that Emmett visited the great courses overseas annually from the 1880s, and was the one who sketched all the great holes there for Macdonald prior to NGLA.

It makes me wonder how renowned Leatherstocking would be if it were built on Long Island, or Boston, or Philly, instead of on some lake in the middle of nowhere (prior to baseball notoriety) upstate New York.

Are we sure that Emmett didn't design Merion??    

[paul cowley]

Sean....its not as fearsome as it looks.

it is short, maybe 125 to 140 yds for most players, and its a drop shot of maybe 25 or 30', straight over a rock ledge.

Its enough of a drop to affect your club selection.

If I were to rate it against similar holes, with PB #17 being a 10....its maybe a 7.

I would love to take out about two thirds of the trees on the course, which is a compact layout whose feeling of closeness has become even more so as these trees have matured.....not to mention that the wonderful views of the lake are compromised.

My guess is that with a proper thinning, a view to the waters could occur on all the holes....which I would also guess was possible in 1909.

My free consultation [expenses only] appointment calender is wide open.

[paul cowley]

You are right Sean...the bunkering is a bit redundant.

If research indicated they were not there originally, or that their configuration had been tampered with over the years, then I would be happy to include their restoration in my free consultation contract.

[JMorgan]

Original #9.  

Mike, as Bob pointed out above, Huntington was constructed around the same time as Cooperstown.  (And Dev designed other courses before Garden City. Maybe that new Dev book being published soon will tell us more.)  If the course was transplanted to L.I., it wouldn't be the same course.  

Sean, what other holes does #12 resemble in your mind?...  From some of the guys I've seen playing that hole, the worst bunker is the parking lot at the farm museum behind the green.
 

[Mike_Cirba]

James,

Great pic of the 9th!

You can kind of see the need for the trees down the right today, given that it's a tourist town with wall-to-wall traffic in the summer.

I sent along some email...please disregard my IM.   It includes a vintage pic of the 12th which you probably already have but just in case.  

[paul cowley]

James ....great photo of the ninth....do you have more....please?

Mike, I agree ....if a tree reduction program was initiated, the trees along all the road edges should be given special consideration toward sparing their lives.

Their silent pleas should be heard.

[Mike_Cirba]

Yes, Paul...that old pic of the 9th looks like a liability lawyer's wet dream.  

[Mike_Cirba]

Push for Jay Flemma...

[John Sheehan]

Mike,
Thank you - what a wonderful looking course.
John

[Mike_Cirba]

Mike,
Thank you - what a wonderful looking course.
John

John,

I was absolutely enchanted by Leatherstocking.   What a splendid place in every respect!

[John Sheehan]

Mike,
Thank you - what a wonderful looking course.
John

John,

I was absolutely enchanted by Leatherstocking.   What a splendid place in every respect!

Mike,
I just looked through both posts again - just amazing movement to the land and no way to tell what is natural and what is not.  Wow.  I must play it.  Thanks again for resurrecting this thread.  Was that island tee on 18 part of his original design in 1909?

[Mike_Cirba]

John,

That's a good question.

When I played LS last summer I assumed the attribution of 1909 was for all 18 holes.

Since then, while looking for something else, I came across a story by Dev Emmett where he talked about the "new course" at Otesaga, which must have been when he expanded the original to eighteen.

I don't know, but I suspect that island tee on 18 might have been from that iteration.

[Sean_A]

This is a most impressive looking course.  I gotta find a way to get there some day.  Thanks for the enlightenment!

Ciao

[ChipOat]

Mike Cirba beat me to it - too many trees!

And some of them come into play from the tee box (e.g. #9) - very bad!!!!!

[Andy Hughes]

I find it ironic that Emmett built the original Garden City (basically today's routing) 10 years earlier.    I find it even more ironic that Emmett visited the great courses overseas annually from the 1880s, and was the one who sketched all the great holes there for Macdonald prior to NGLA.

Are we sure that Emmett didn't design Merion?? 

Aha!! And you mocked me when I suggested they had been foolish to hire a know-nothing greenhorn like Wilson rather than go with the proven talents of Travis or Colt. And now you throw Emmet into the mix to bolster my point. Merion might have ended up with a good course if only they had heeded my advice. 

[ANTHONYPIOPPI]

Here are a series of photos looking left from the third tee, gradually towards the green. I believe the original hole design would have called for a tee shot over this entirely created gouge where the soil appears to have been used to create the slope leading to the green and possibly part of the fourth tee.

Anthony

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